Jeremy Stacy, “List-en Up!” associate producer
Bruce Ammerman interview
Feb. 10, 2009

Jeremy Stacy: Please give me your name and your business name for the record.

Dr. Christina Wilson: My name is Dr. Christina Wilson and I'm the president of Renaissance Development. Renaissance Development is a small construction company in Washington, D.C. We have been in business for five years.

Our specialty is exterior masonry. We do patios, walkways, retaining walls, steps and tuckpointing. Tuckpointing is really our bread and butter, but we also do a lot of urban gardens for people. In urban neighborhoods, people have a tendency to have a small front and back yards so we specialize in creating nice gardens for people to spend time in.

JS: How did you get involved in this line of work?

CW: I have a Ph.D. in architectural history and my specialty is American architecture. For years I worked in continuing education, which is education for adults. I was director of programs and adult education at the National Building Museum in Washington [D.C.] and I was there for four years. I was working a lot of nights and weekends, so I wanted to try something different so I did some odds and ends for a while.

I met a friend of a friend who built patios in suburban Virginia and so I helped him with his business for a while just on a consulting basis. I realized there was a really big market for this kind of work in Washington, D.C. It didn't seem like many contractors were doing it and it's a very good market for D.C. because D.C. is a brick city.

That's the very short version of how I got into this business.

JS: What is tuckpointing?

CW: Tuckpointing is the restoration of the mortar joints in a historic brick building. The reason it's called tuckpointing - sometimes it's called repointing - some purists say repointing is the more accurate term, but tuckpointing is the term more commonly used - it refers to the process of removing aging or failing mortar between the bricks in an old building and then replacing it with historically appropriate mortar.

JS: Can the terms tuckpointing and brick restoration be used interchangeably?

CW: Tuckpointing specifically refers to addressing the joints themselves. During the process of tuckpointing we often repair brick faces and clean them and that sort of thing. Masonry or brick restoration is a big umbrella term and tuckpointing would probably go within that because tuckpointing is specifically referring to the restoration of the joints themselves.

JS: Why do homes require tuckpointing?

CW: Historic buildings in the United States that date anywhere from the 18th century up until the 1930s, for the most part, were built with bricks fired in either a fire-burning kiln or a coal-burning kiln. Those bricks are relatively soft because that sort of fire doesn't get that hot, relatively speaking.

These historic bricks are very soft and the mortar that was used to put them together originally was a lime-based mortar. Lime is a stone, and just like the bricks, you burn it in a kiln and then you add sand and a couple other things and you put the building together — at least historically.

Let's say that you have a building that’s 100 years old.  Because the lime mortar is relatively soft, when it's exposed to wind and weather over the decades, it starts to fail. You'll see mortar that you can stick a key in. It's soft enough where the mortar will just come right up. That can lead to structural problems for a building and it can also lead to water penetration if there are gaps in the brick joints.

It's very important to take away the failing mortar - the crumbling stuff - and then put mortar back that replicates the original [mortar] in consistency, content and texture. It's very important not to use cement. Cement is a modern building material that was used primarily ¬¬as a paving material at the turn of the 20th century for walkways and steps and that kind of stuff. But, it became very commonly used in new construction during and after World War II.

Typical 1950s suburban developments, for example, were all built with bricks fired at a very high temperature and then concrete was used to put them together. But concrete is a modern material that doesn't get along with the historical materials.

Concrete is very hard. It's harder than the old bricks themselves, so it can cause those bricks to crack if you tuckpoint with concrete. Concrete also has chemicals in it and so if you tuckpoint a historical building with concrete, the chemicals in the concrete can actually eat away the bricks and old mortar like acid. It's very important if your tuckpointing a historical building that you do it with the right materials.

Tuckpointing is sort of a weird animal because most people don't know anything about it, but then they buy a historic brick house and they wonder why the mortar is falling out.

JS: Do newer homes require tuckpointing?

CW: Buildings built after World War I - in the 1920s and the 1930s - they rarely need tuckpointing because they do tend to be constructed with mortar that has a little bit more cement in it. By the 1920s and 1930s, the bricks that were used in new construction were fired at a much higher temperature. So those buildings are not only newer, but they tend not to fail the same way an 18th or 19th century building would.

Any building built after World War II doesn't need tuckpointing because the materials that were used are so hard and again, it hasn't had the chance to age to the same extent that a Colonial or Victorian house has.

JS: Tell me about the process of tuckpointing.

CW: Tuckpointing is a lot like ice skating. It looks really easy until you try to do it.  It takes a tremendous amount of work. All the guys that work for me are from Honduras and they've been masons all their lives. They're very experienced bricklayers and they know how to do new construction.

You have to be very careful when you're scraping out those joints that you don't damage the old bricks because they are old. It's very easy to chip the corners off and do damage that way.

We also do all this work by hand. We don't use diamond blade saws or machines to cut out the joints because you can do damage to an old building if you do that.

Then, when you put the mortar back in, it's very tricky because you've got this open joint. The bricks are just sitting there with spaces between them and you have to get the mortar in. It has to be the right consistency. It can't be too wet. When you add the water to the mortar, it can't be too runny and it can't be too thick. You've got to make sure there aren't air bubbles.

Then when the joint is filled in, all the joints have to be scored, which means you take a concave tool and you scrape the mortar out so there's a slight recess to the joint. That way the water will flick off the wall so it won't run straight down. To do that and make it look good and consistent is very tricky. It's also very tricky to keep the mortar in the mortar joints and not get it smeared all over the bricks because you want to have a very clearly defined joint. And, you want to have a demarcation between the brick itself and the brick joint.

We actually redo a lot of bad tuckpointing projects. We work on buildings that have aged and need attention, but a lot of times these buildings have bad fixes or masonry works that's just not very well done. We spend a lot of time undoing that kind of stuff and redoing it the right way.

JS: Are there certain parts of a brick home that tend to deteriorate more quickly than others?

CW:  The most acute level of failure that you'll see first tends to be around the first floor and the basement area. That's because when water hits the wall, it runs down the face of the wall and as it runs down it slows down. It tends to penetrate the brick joints at the first floor and in the basement. That's when people usually notice it. Of course, if it's at eye level you can really see it.

A lot of people think that if you just address the first floor of the basement - because it looks the worst - that's going to solve the problem. But, that level of failure is usually pronounced over the entire building. It's just not as obvious if you're looking at it with the naked eye from the ground.

There are plenty of contractors out there that will just do what we call spot tuckpointing, which means they would just tuckpoint here and there. We don't do that. If a building needs tuckpointing, the whole thing needs tuckpointing. It's all or nothing.

JS: How can a homeowner tell if their home is in need of tuckpointing?

CW: The first thing homeowners should ask themselves is "How old is the house?" If the house was built before 1920 and it's brick, there's a very good chance it at least needs some attention.

I have a key on my key ring, which I call my tuckpointing key. When I go to see clients, I use my key to see if I can stick the key in the mortar joint. Now if I can put a key in the joint and the mortar is soft enough that the key will stick there, that's a real sign that the mortar is getting soft and it probably needs to be redone.

JS: How long does a typical project last and what's the average cost?

CW: I really couldn't give you a cost because it varies so much. If you're in a row house in a historic neighborhood - in D.C., row houses on Capitol Hill and the older parts of town tend to be 17 to 18 feet wide. If you're just doing the front facade, you're looking at a project that's maybe 750 or 800 square feet. If you're doing the sides or the back, those walls can be much larger.

Historic buildings have a tendency to be typological, but they're all different. The way we estimate the cost for tuckpointing is we measure the square footage of the side of the building that needs work, then we give a price based on the square foot and the level of deterioration and also the extent to which there have been bad fixes.

For example, if you have a wall that's been covered with concrete and it's chewing up the bricks that are behind it, that's going to be more expensive to fix because we have to undo the bad stuff. If we have to take away that concrete, we have to stabilize the wall, then we have to tuckpoint. It's very rare for us to find a building that doesn't have bad fixes that we have to undo.

The question is what is the extent? Is it just a few joints here and there? We've had buildings where the entire side facade is covered with a layer of concrete. When we take the concrete off, some of the brick faces come with it.

You could have three buildings on a street that were all built at exactly the same time, but they could be in totally different states of repair or disrepair depending on who's owned them and what's been done to them.

Based on that, I can't really give you a price [range] because old buildings are so different.

JS: Have any interesting stories come out of tuckpointing projects you have done?

CW: The first thing that comes to mind is I've had clients that like to climb on the scaffolding. I'm always telling my clients that I don't want them to climb on the scaffolding because of the liability. I have a clause in my contract that states that you can't climb on the scaffolding unless the president or the crew foreman is there.

I have one client that climbed the scaffolding and she measured all the mortar joints to make sure that we scraped out enough. She got up there with a ruler and she measured them all. We made her happy though.

Tuckpointing is a very satisfying thing because it's very hard to find a contractor that knows how to do it properly. Sometimes homeowners are very nervous about who's going to do it and how they're going to do it. It's very big investment. It's like getting a new roof. You want to make sure you have somebody who does it right.

You're really helping homeowners. People who live in historic buildings are really making a commitment to spend more money and more effort than folks who tend to live in newer houses. Old houses do need a lot of work and they need a lot attention. Tuckpointing is something that an old house needs that a new house doesn't.

If you're living in a 1970s or 1980s suburb, nobody needs tuckpointing. But, everyone on Capitol Hill does to a certain extent. It's satisfying because you're really fulfilling a need for people who love their old houses and want to take care of them.

The other thing that's great about it is buildings that are 100 years old, they tend to get dirty over time. When we tuckpoint, the wall gets washed several times. At the end, not only are all the mortar joints consistent in their color, but also the walls are clean. People are always amazed at how good the building looks.

Usually they call us and say the mortar is falling out so we need to get the wall tuckpointed, but then they're always amazed at how pretty it is. You don't quite expect that. You're used to grungy old dirty brick buildings.

When they're all cleaned and they're so beautiful, that's just great. I always tell clients at the beginning when we start that you're not going to believe how good this is going to look. They don't quite believe me until we actually get done and they're like "Wow, this is so gorgeous!" That's very gratifying.

JS:  What kind of questions should homeowners ask when they're trying to select a contractor to perform tuckpointing.

CW: The first thing you want to do is check to make sure your contractor is licensed, bonded and insured. Always request a copy of the license and a copy of the insurance information.

Then, you want to ask how long the company has been in business and how long they've been doing tuckpointing and how many projects they've done.

You want to ask who is doing the work. Is it full-time employees or subcontractors? A lot of construction companies focus on carpentry and remodeling interiors and if there's brickwork, they tend to subcontract it out because brickwork is sort of a specialty.

You really need to ask who is going to do the work. All of my employees have been with me for five years. They're all full-time employees. I know them very well and I know how skilled they are. We've completed well over 100 projects. I've lost count we've done so many.

The other important question is what sort of materials are going to be used? It's very important that the mortar used in historic buildings is lime-based and doesn't have any cement in it.

A lot of contractors that do tuckpointing will use mortar with some cement in it because they think it's better to have some of that hardness. I don't agree with that. I think you should use just lime [-based mortar].

The homeowner will really want to ask exactly what kind of mortar is going to be used. They might even want to do research on the company that manufactures the mortar to check out its content and so on.

A lot of times people will just go to the hardware store and buy a bag of cement and go "Oh, I think I'll just try this myself." You see a lot of what I call Frankenstein fixes. You'll see a building that has sort of a jagged edge of mortar in between the bricks sort of here and there. It's not consistent and it sort of looks like somebody climbed up the ladder on a Saturday afternoon and just fiddled with 1 square foot of the wall and that was it.

It's actually worse to have repairs like that as opposed to doing nothing because of the potentially bad workmanship and also because of the materials that are harmful.

We see concrete and cement on these old buildings. We also see silicone. I've seen duct tape. I've seen bathtub caulking in brick joints. Roofers have a tendency to - they're very good at roofs - but they'll tend to put roof sealant all over the chimney, which is a mess. We undo that kind of stuff too.

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Jeremy Stacy, “List-en Up!” associate producer
Bruce Ammerman interview
March 11, 2009

Jeremy Stacy: Please give me your name, location for the record.

Bruce Ammerman:  My name is Bruce Ammerman and I live in Asheville, N.C.

JS: Tell me about your home.

BA: This is a brick and stucco house that was built in 1924. At some point it was painted. When I bought the home at that time, I did not know that it could be a real bad idea to paint a brick house.

JS: Why isn't it a good idea to paint a brick home?

BA: It might be easiest if I start chronologically. Sometime last summer, I was out under the deck in the rear of my house where things tend to get stored and I noticed that a number of the mortar joints were missing a lot of mortar.

I crouched down and took a twig and poked in at some of these holes in some of these mortar joints. In a couple of them, when I poked the twig in between the bricks, sand just started to pour out and I started to freak out a little bit because it doesn't seem like a good idea for sand to be making little piles on the ground underneath your wall.

I realized as I continued to explore it with a twig or my finger that in many of these joints between the bricks, the mortar was so soft that it was crumbling with the touch of my finger.

I did a lot of research and it turns out that bricks that were made before the 1920s or 1930s were fired at a lower temperature so they're not as hard as modern bricks. Also, the mortar that was typically used was a lime-based mortar, which is also somewhat softer than the modern mortars, which are made using Portland cement. Most importantly, the lime-based mortars that are typical in houses built before the mid-1920s are rather porous to moisture. That's a good thing because if moisture gets caught inside the walls, it can gradually kind of wick its way through the bricks and through the mortar joints out into the atmosphere without threatening the integrity of the structure.

When people paint these brick walls, particularly with modern paints, this forms a waterproof skin, which prevents wicking from taking place. If water gets into the wall, like from gutters or cracks in the walls, the water stays in the wall and gradually will break down the mortar. That's what happened in the rear of my house.

I had to find a mason who knew enough about these issues who wouldn't go throw a bunch of Portland cement into these joints. Why wouldn't you want to do that? Because if you patch an old brick wall made with lime[-based] mortar using a Portland cement-based mortar, the Portland cement-based mortar is much harder and it is water impermeable. Having these different mortars of different hardnesses in the same joints can cause the brick wall to continue to disintegrate over time.

It was not easy to find a mason who knew about these older structures. I had several masons come give me appraisals on the job and they probably would have been fine with a more recently constructed house. But, they didn't seem to know anything about older mortars and older bricks. It took me a while to find somebody who did.

JS: So you did all the research before you even picked up the phone to find a mason?

BA: Yes. I just started doing a lot of research on the Internet and the more I read, the more complicated it seemed to get. Also, the more I read, the more irritated I got at whoever it was that painted the brick house in the first place. And, [I was] irritated at myself for not having been more knowledgeable about the whole thing.

If I had known about all this stuff, I might not have bought the house. I don't know if that's the case, but it is one of those things where it's a lot more complicated than throwing paint over a brick wall.

JS: What kind of questions did you ask to find out if the masons were qualified?

BA: I believe that they were all qualified. The question is qualified for what? After I started asking masons what kind of mortar they planned to use, it became evident pretty quickly that they only really knew how to deal with modern structures.

JS: How did you find the mason you eventually hired?

BA: That was the tricky part. I volunteer for Habitat for Humanity and I asked people there, [but] they didn't really know because they're building modern houses. I eventually, through my research, found a couple of companies in the Asheville area that do renovations of old structures and I spoke to two of these different companies and explained my problem. Then I said, “Can you recommend somebody who understands about these issues in older structures?” Scott Fargo of Northland Masonry was the person they recommended as someone who was well-versed with this stuff.

Then I interviewed him and had him come out the house and talked to him about what kind of background he had and he struck me as somebody who wasn't — I don't mean to be demeaning to someone's profession — wasn't just a mason, but was also interested in some of these older techniques and the needs of older structures.

JS:  Will you walk me through the process of what he did to repair the home?

BA: Scott spent a lot of time looking at the house and said, "I can't give you a singe dollar figure because since the house is painted, I can't really tell how badly decayed many of these joints are until I do some power washing and some exploration."

In fact, it turned out that at some point the painters — [because] the bricks were so badly decayed and so much mortar was missing — they had just sprayed that spray foam between the bricks and then painted over it. Well, it looks fine when it's been painted over. You couldn't tell that wasn't mortar between those bricks. It was just plastic foam that came out of a can.

It took Scott a while exploring and spray washing to uncover what the healthy joints were from the decayed joints. He took out the remains of the bad mortar, or in some cases caulking, or in some cases the spray foam, and then packed it in with mortar designed for the needs of my brick house — not to be harder than the previous mortar that was in there.

This house was built with red tinted mortar — red brick and red mortar. Well, I wanted the new mortar to be the same color as the old mortar even though it was going to be painted over. Why did I want to do that? Because ultimately, I might decide to have the house sprayed with nut hulls, which will remove the paint, but not damage the brick or mortar. If I want to do that at some future point, I don't want to have a house that looks all modeled with mostly red mortar joints and some with modern while looking mortar joints.

So he did all the tuckpointing and he had to do quite a bit around the house. Fortunately, most of it that had to be done was in the back and in one general area close to the ground level.

I wanted to cover up the many new red mortar joints with a paint that would match with the rest of the house.     But, I didn't want to do it with a modern paint, which would just start the whole process over again. Scott had recommended a company and I corresponded with them and sent them a sample of the old mortar and of the present paint on the house. They sent me one of their products, which is a lime and casein-based paint, which is porous. It looks like paint. It goes on like paint. But, it is porous so that any water that gets caught up behind the paint in the wall can wick its way through like it's supposed to.

JS: Based on your experience, what would you recommend to homeowners who may need to have tuckpointing done to their house?

BA: It really helps to educate yourself about this so you have some sense of what you're looking at and hopefully find somebody who has some expertise and recognizes that there have been some major changes in the materials in masonry construction over the last 50 to 100 years.

I don't pretend to be a mason whatsoever. That's why I hired somebody. But kind of like when your car breaks down, if you don't know anything about cars at all, you feel like you're at the mercy of whoever you take it to. Few of us like that feeling.   

Twinkle VanWinkle, “List-en Up!” associate producer
Interview Angie Hicks – Angie’s List founder
Jan. 7, 2009

Twinkle VanWinkle: When did Angie’s List start the Wishmakers program and why?

Angie Hicks: We started the Wishmakers program in 2004. It actually came out of a story request from one of our TV partners, WISH-TV, here in Indianapolis. They had a girl who had written for help for her ailing parents to help get their house organized because they were sick. So we pitched in and helped them find organizers and house cleaners to come in and help out. Just from the outcome of that project we had such a strong response from the service companies that it really seemed like a project we wanted to carry on.

TVW: How does the Wishmakers program work? Does the nominator have to be an Angie's List member? How does the contractor get involved?

Hicks: The Wishmakers program is open to anyone in the community. They can write in and tell us a story about a family in need and then we’ll select the story and search for the service companies that are interested in helping out with the project.

TVW: Are the services fully donated or does Angie's List pick up some of the tab?

Hicks: We’ve actually been so excited about the response from the service companies. They’ve actually donated all of the supplies and services for the projects, basically. And we’ve done things that cost tens of thousands of dollars for some projects so it’s real exciting to see service companies really pitching in and helping the community.

TVW: How many Wishmakers projects has Angie's List organized? Is it a nationwide program?

Hicks: We do run Wishmakers nationwide. Over the last four years we have completed about 30 projects, so it really depends on the inflow of projects that we have and the ones we can match up with help in their area.

TVW: What’s the most memorable Wishmakers project to you? Who was the recipient and why were they chosen?

Hicks: I think one of the most memorable ones in the Wishmakers program that I remember was last year, here in Indianapolis. It was for a little boy who had Bubble Boy Disease, as it’s commonly called. He wasn’t able to be outside because his immune system was deficient. And when he got out of the hospital, his family was really looking for a very sanitary room, where he could get lots of sunlight, where he could simulate being outside within the house. We sent out a request for help on this project, and within just a few minutes had a response back from a contractor that was willing to take on the general contracting side of the project, who lined up all the subcontractors for the project. I think the project ended up being a $20,000 or $30,000 project when it was all said and done.

TVW: Are there other memorable Wishmakers projects?

Hicks: A lot of times the Wishmakers program revolves around illness in a family. In Tucson there was a family whose father was suffering from cancer. We helped them renovate above the garage so she could come back to the family and help out with caring for her father and her younger siblings. There was another cancer situation in Boston, where the family had actually adopted a number of children, and then the mother ended up getting cancer. They just needed help getting the house in shape to take care of the kids.

TVW: Does Angie’s List check in on Wishmakers recipients after the projects’ completion?

Hicks: We do check in on the recipients after the projects’ completion. Often times we hear stories and as we evolve we end up keeping in touch just because of the closeness we’ve worked with them during the project - especially on some of these bigger projects that we’ve done.

TVW: In 2008, Angie's List began accepting nominations year-round instead of just once a year. Why the change? Have more nominations been received since changing this?

Hicks: We really moved the program — as far as not being just one time a year — because there might be need throughout the year. We would rather work on matching them up as we find them and also it helps as we reach out to the service provider community if you have them all at one time, you might be able to only do one in one city. But this way we might be able to tackle multiple projects in one year.

TVW: Would you like to add anything else about Wishmakers?

Hicks: Even our strong response to Wishmakers during a downturn in the economy is really impressive. We’ve had some of our biggest projects in the last six months, which really says a lot for the service companies in our communities. Even when business might be a little slower they are still willing to give back and help out one another in the community.

Twinkle VanWinkle, “List-en Up!” associate producer
Interview Monica Brown – Angie’s List Member, Wishmakers recipient, Tucson, Ariz.
Feb. 18, 2009


Twinkle VanWinkle: May I get your name and location, please? And your family members’?

Monica Brown: My name is Monica Brown and I live in Tucson, Ariz. My husband is Paul Brown and my daughter is Danielle.

TVW: Can you give me a little background on how you got involved with Angie’s List and the Wishmakers program?

Brown: In March of 2004, my husband found out that he had male breast cancer. It’s been kind of tough since he has gotten it. One day I was reading an e-mail from Angie’s List about nominating someone to receive something special. I requested that [Danielle’s] room be finished, because we had only gotten to start the project into the carport, but not finished.


TVW: And she had moved home?

Brown: No, she had always lived at home, but we had just a two-bedroom home and the girls had to share a room. She always wanted her own room, so we were converting our carport into a bedroom for her. The funds ran out and we weren’t able to get it finished.

TVW: What happened at this point?

Brown: Because she was about to be home and I was working full-time, Danielle took on a lot of responsibility. She still does it and she kept track of all his appointments. She makes sure that he gets to them all. She keeps track of all the information the doctors tell about to keep me updated if I’m not at the appointments. She has picked up a lot of the housework and she is working part-time herself. She does a lot to help the family.

TVW: How old is Danielle?

Brown: Danielle is 21.

TVW: What happened when the project started, what did they do?

Brown: They came out; it was basically a blank room. There was no flooring, no doors. The wall had not been broken open to connect it to the main part of the house into the carport. So it was just a shell with windows. The drywall was finished. There was no flooring, no doors. It needed paint, some electrical items finished. Because the carport is lower than the house itself, they even put in a stairway so she would be able to step down into her room nicely and still have a connection with the rest of the house. It just went great. They put in laminate flooring, which is what she really wanted, and they put shelving in the closet. They put in a door. They knocked out the brick and redid it all and trimmed it off, put in the steps. They did a lot of work. You can never really thank a person for all of that.

TVW: How long had you been a member of Angie’s List?

Brown: I had seen a note in the local paper about the new program that Angie had created and that they were going to give six months free. So I signed up. Once I was on that I started receiving the e-mails and that’s how I found out about the program that helped those that were in need, and do something nice for someone who does something nice for someone else. Even though she’s my daughter, she could have chose not to jump in like she did and help, but she did.

TVW: What’s going on with your husband currently?

Brown: Unfortunately his condition has progressed. The last scan we got he has more than three dozen tumors in his bones now. The right hip is bad enough that they are radiating and hoping that it will not break, because cancer leaves little holes in your bones. They’re hopeful, at least at the moment because it’s not in any major organs. It has spread quite a few places, and some tissue spots in lymph nodes also. He just keep plugging away at it. He will have his five years next month, so we just keep hoping for more. Right now he has started his first radiation treatment. He goes every day for 15 days. Then he has chemo and blood work all the time in between. It gets really hectic.

TVW: It’s great you have someone at home to help you.

Brown: It’s good having her home and she’s not in a hurry to go anywhere. That’s OK with us. She is a big help to our other daughter who is 14 and takes her places. She’s a big support. Her name is Kayla. And we have a son Jason, who is 23. He’s married and he lives in Benson. Paul was married before so he has two daughters, and six granddaughters and three great-grandchildren, too.

TVW: I realize it has been very tough on you and your family.

Brown: It wears on you sometimes. I have my weepy weeks. It’s just a lot going on, trying to juggle everybody’s appointments. [Danielle] has it all in a honking planner she carries with everybody’s appointments. Keeps track of all her schedules, and between her and I we have to juggle getting him to all his appointments.

TVW: It sounds like you two make a great team.

Brown: We’re trying. But I think that’s with any family that goes through this. You go in there and they’re doing that chemo and stuff on people. It really breaks your heart and you realize just how many other families are going through this. We’ve got a good group of friends because we’ve needed our roof done now. We had what they call microburst hit our house. Our insurance is enough to pay for the supplies. One of our friends is heading it up. One of them said, “We’re having a roof party!” and they are all coming over and try and get this roof done. That’s the next step, just plug away one at a time.

TVW: Thanks so much and we wish you the best!

Brown: Thanks so much! We appreciate it so much.
Did you hear that “extreme Home-Makeover” came to town? I thought about putting in for it, but we heard the person who got it, and I told Paul we would have never got it. It was a little girl with a rare blood disorder. I said we’d never beat her! It is supposed to air around March 22. That is what it think is neat about Angie’s List is that it’s people with little things instead of these huge things that only one person gets help with. Instead it’s a lot of people getting help with some little things. I think there are a lot more people out there like us that just need some little things done. We can live with the size of our home; it’s just hard to keep up.

Guareneros Project Ribbon-cutting
Indianapolis
October 2008

Tristan Schmid, List-en Up! producer: Can you give us a little about his condition and a little bit about the project?

Karin Guareneros: Sebastian started getting sick about this time last year. Just thought it was cold symptoms and fever, diarrhea. It wouldn’t go away. By the end of the year, we were certain something was wrong because the fevers were getting higher. He was waking up in the middle of the night. You could tell he was feeling bad, crying all the time. In January he was diagnosed with pneumonia. He spent five days at Riley [Hospital for Children]. He came home with a pick line where I gave him meds through his IV.
February he was diagnosed with another pneumonia. At this point people were trying to tell us it was asthma, it's this or that or another cold. So we had a lot of frustration trying to find a diagnosis. Eventually he stopped eating. A couple of days later he was admitted to Riley. They found another pneumonia, RSV, a cold and a lung infection.

Enrique Guareneros: He was getting all kinds of infections.

Karin: Basically we were watching him die.

Enrique: It is a rare condition. At first the doctors would never think that immediately that you didn’t have an immune system. They never thought that until finally …

Karin: The well visit with his pediatrician.

Enrique: We went to his pediatrician after we took his brother. She said there was something definitely wrong. She set up the appointment at Riley Hospital.

Karin: She had said this before and they had turned us away.

Enrique: They said he had a cold. It cannot be a cold. It’s been two months with a cold. We left that day from the hospital like we couldn’t believe it. Looking at each other in disbelief. How can we prove this is not a normal cold?

Karin: Two days before he was admitted we were told by the allergist that he needed more asthma medicine. At that time, I was like, “He’s not eating, he’s not eating.” They said bring him back in three weeks and just give him more asthma medicine.

Enrique: We were like, “He’s not going to last.”

Karin: So thank god for the pediatrician who realized he was failure to thrive. Because the PCP pneumonia that he had, the third one he got, usually the baby will die from it. We got in  to see the doctor, and the doctors told us the clock is ticking. We found out two weeks later it was SCIDS.

Enrique: Sever combined immunodeficiency. No immune system basically. It was when the world changed. Because it turned from a sick kid a year ago to whatever is necessary to keep him with us. Because we love him a lot. He is a very nice kid. Even sometimes when he is sick, and feeling bad and throwing up and everything you can still see him smile. You could still see him behaving like he wanted to stay here, too.

Karin: The only option was a transplant: stem cell or bone marrow. We couldn’t find the one marrow match, so it was a stem cell. The doctors were still very serious with us until he showed signs of progressing. They were like we still have to wait and see, that the odds were against us. You just need to pray about it. There were a lot of conversations like that.

Enrique: During all this time he was feeling like … I forgot what I was going to say.

Karin: That he was still a very happy baby. If you were just looking at him, he didn’t look as sick as he was. And a lot of doctors told us that saw him said the same thing — that he didn’t really realize how sick he was.  So he had the transplant.

Enrique: That was what I was going to say. He needed to get better first before going into transplant. They couldn’t go ahead with the transplant when he was sick. That’s why they were like we had to wait.  So we waited there at the hospital for months until he got a little better. Then finally they said he wasn’t getting much better than this so we got to go ahead with the transplant. It was kind of like a transfusion.

Karin: There’s pictures on our website. They just put it right into his IV. It took like 15 minutes.
The process of the transplant is the preparation up to the point and how they recover after. It’s not actually those few minutes. So then after he hit certain numbers on his blood results — certain things had to be certain levels for him to come home.  Once he came home he had to be in isolation. In the hospital he was in isolation, and at home as well. That’s where the idea came for the room. My friend e-mailed Angie's List, saying she had a friend who has a baby who has SCIDS and he basically has to be in a bubble. That’s where the bubble boy disease came from. She nominated us I guess. We heard that there was a big response from the community and they were able to do it to give him his own space. Because he was going to share a room with his brother, but after this that was out of the options. The room that we had for office, for family became his room. We had to relocate everything else which has become very tight. Also to have a play space for him. He can go on walks outside, and I can walk him, but he can’t touch anything.

Enrique: [He can’t touch] the grass right now. Eventually he will be able to, and that’s the point of all this – to get him back to normal. That’s very important. Fortunately this is not going to last. It’s still getting better.

Karin: He got his brother’s cold. And we’ve been a little freaked out the last few days. It hasn’t been fun.

Enrique: He’s fighting it. He’s got new cells. I think he’s going to be all right. He’s been crying a bit and a little fussy.

Karin: We’ve had a little bit of flashbacks from when he was sick because of the waking up in the middle of the night – the temperature.

(Sebastian crying)

Enrique: And the crying like that. It makes you think, “Are you OK?”

Karin: But so far so good. He really likes to be in the room. He looks out the windows.  They play in there. It’s nice to have a separate spot instead of trying to keep everything clean. I mean I still keep everything in the house clean, when you go in you can see that. But just to have it more controlled, that space is a lot easier. Plus we can sit in there. It’s really sunny. So, they did a good job of bringing the outdoors in.

Enrique: Then in the end, as I was telling Karin, they made a little bigger house for some things that were important for the baby and for the whole family as well.

Karin: And grandma has a place to stay now when she visits. Because when he got his own room, Xavier lost his room and he could never play in there. Now she has a place to sleep, which is nice. And we lost the office room. So we have a space to set things up inside, a place to set up a computer …

Enrique: … and work.

Karin: And work together. Because he can’t be in there because he can’t be out in the garage.

Enrique: You know how you can listen to some dogs barking. You know they are par t of the family as well. And we needed to learn a way to live with them without thinking, “OK bye,” without putting them in the shelter. It was going to be really tough and of course if it was mandatory to get rid of the dogs we would, but that’s also part of the help that this room is bringing. Sometimes they can come in the house for a while and be with us, then go back outside or the garage and the floors are good.

Karin: They make it easy for us to clean.

Enrique: I wasn’t particularly expecting it and it shows really what the community is made of.  Say “thank you,” Sebastian. Thank you guys so much.

Karin: He hasn’t really had any hurdles. They say he has defeated all the odds. They said no baby has recovered like he has.

Enrique: So far. We don’t like to sing victories just yet, because as soon as we said we think he is getting better, then, boom, he got the cold.

Tristan: It seems like your attitude really helps him out a lot.

Karin: Even when he was in the hospital he was really happy. He would sit there and play in his crib for hours. He is definitely the baby to have if you have to go through this.

Enrique: Yeah, because his brother was like non-stop. I don’t know what would have happened if he would have been the one. This is genetically transmitted usually. It could be just a mutation. She and I were not carriers, nothing. It’s like one day you win the lottery, that’s it. We don’t know yet, those tests and things like that take time for us to know what’s going to happen if she is a carrier. I cannot be the carrier because it’s for boys — the X-link SCIDS.

Karin: The X-link SCIDS is for boys, but there were girls in Riley that had SCIDS as well. But when boys get it, it’s on the X-link and he can’t pass it on. The X-link comes from the mother if the boy gets it. And if the mother gets it because of your chromosomes she is just the carrier because she has the girl (Y chromosome) to save her.

Jeff Horn: My name is Jeff Horan. My company’s the Lifestyle Group. We’re a full-service remodeler here in Indianapolis. We offered our services to just oversee the whole project and coordinate everything as soon as Angie sent out the request.

Tristan Schmid: How was this project different from your typical projects?

Horn: Not a lot different really. About the only difference is that we were working with some trade partners and suppliers because everybody was donating their time. We were trying to be sensitive to other people’s schedules that had other work, so we just kind of worked through that with people. If somebody offered their time and energy we just worked through coordinating that effort.

Tristan Schmid: How did you hear about this?

Horn: Angie Barnes has sent an e-mail out that said there was a request that there was a little boy in Riley that had the immune system disorder and they were looking for some extra space and could people help donate their time. My first reaction was that Angie’s not going to be able to do this. She has no idea what she is getting into.  So I just said we’ll run the project and work together and help you and you can get service providers from Angie’s List that you know and I can get people to fill the gaps with people I know. Between the two of us we can probably put it together and get it done.

Tristan Schmid: Were there any big difficulties that you had to deal with?

Horan: No, not particularly. Actually everything went pretty smooth. We had a few surprises. We pulled up the paver patio and there was a concrete slab under there. But that is typical in any remodel, that you open something up and you don’t know what’s there.

Angela Barnes: I just want to thank everybody for coming. We have several service providers here that have all donated labor and time. We really appreciate it. We have Angie Hicks. She’s the founder of Angie’s List. Jeff Horn is the president of the Lifestyle group that took on the job himself. He really ran it literally from the ground up. Then Karin and Enrique Guareneros. And this is little Sebastian. I’m going to hand over the scissors to mom and dad. Before we actually we cut, we’ll have Angie say a couple of words and then Jeff and Karin.

Angie Hicks: We are so excited to have this room completed. It’s a great story. We are thrilled with all the volunteers that came forward to help put this room together for Sebastian. It was a great effort. The Wishmakers program has been around for several years now, but by far this is the biggest project we have ever accomplished. It couldn’t have been done without all the service providers that were here to help.

Jeff Horn: I’d just like to thank all the people that helped. Everybody was tremendously helpful. I want to thank a lot of people in our company, as well, who spent a lot of time and effort to pull it off. I’ve received a lot of credit, but quite honestly working with Angie and the family, it was a lot of people that came together and a lot of generosity. So thank you very much to everybody. Thanks for coming out. It’s a very nice thing we were able to do. Hope you guys enjoy it.

Karin and Enrique: Thank you, thank you.

Karin Guareneros: I just want to say tank you. I never feel like that is enough or that it truly captures what I really fell. It’s a lot more than just saying thank you. It’s changed a lot for us. Not only does it give him a play space, but it has opened up other options. We get to sit out there as a family. He can’t play in the grass, so he is already going from window to window cruising, watching what is going on outside. Since he can’t touch it, he can sit there and maybe pretend he is.  It’s just amazing. It’s just amazing that you have all done this for us. Until this day, we never really knew you, and it’s just overwhelming what you’ve done.

Enrique Guareneros: I want to say my wife always tell me,”You’re so deep. Come on, say something.” All right that is what I am going to try to do right now. Try to get to the point. Maybe the only thing that is more, fills you more inside to receive, is more like people that really like to give. The only thing that I can say is that it shows what the community is made of. It really again shows what the community is made of and I am surprised by the response. It’s just amazing. It would be nice to have one thing like this, but when you see that people are doing just to help my son in this case. In name of Sebastian and myself and my family I would just like to say it was a great honor to work with you as well. Thank you.

Angie Barnes: Here is where we grab the scissors.

Angie Hicks: Each year we have the Wishmakers program where we invite people to write in about stories about people that are potentially in need. Then we review the stories. A lot of the projects we have tackled in the past have been much smaller in scope — Whether adding handicapped features to a house, or doing things like that. But this story just struck a chord with all of us, that if we could help little Sebastian to have a room he could play in that would be great. Of course it was a project we were unsure of we could fulfill. We reached out and sent e-mails to service providers on the List and within a few minutes Jeff from the Lifestyle Group responded saying he wanted to tackle the project. So it all really worked out and Jeff helped align all the other service companies to complete the project. It’s turned out to be a great success.

Jeremy Stacy, “List-en Up!” associate producer
Rich Munson interview
Feb. 18, 2009

Jeremy Stacy: Please give me your name and location for the record.

Rich Munson: My name is Rich Munson and I live in Burke, Va. – in the Washington, D.C., metro area.

JS: How did you learn that you had a mold problem and where was it located in your home?

RM: It was actually visible through the wall a little bit. It was behind a toilet in a half bathroom. This is a home we had just purchased. It was a foreclosure so we expected some of that sort of thing. As we were inspecting [the home], you could see it coming through the wall behind the toilet.

JS: How big was the affected area?

RM: At first we had a company come in and do a full mold inspection. We paid about $300 for that and they come in and tell you what the scope of the work is going to be. They said it was going to be about 32 square feet of wallboard, which is basically one piece of wallboard that you would buy from Home Depot or something.

It was a different company that we had do the remediation. So when the company called BioServe came in to do the remediation, they took the wallboard down and found it to be about three times that much. It was about 96 square feet of wall space that needed to be replaced.

JS: Can you walk me through the steps you took to resolve the mold issue?

RM: First, I called a mold inspection company. They just do the inspection so there's not a conflict of interest where they do the remediation as well. So the inspection company comes in, they take a swab of the mold, they send it off to a lab, and about a week later it comes back and they say, "These are the different types of mold you have and this is how much of it there is." They actually went through and wrote a scope of work they thought needed to happen in order for a full remediation to take place.

At that point, we went and got some bids from companies we found on Angie's List and had folks come out to the house and take a look at it and say what they thought it would cost. We got a bid for $1,050 to do the complete remediation. That was Bioserv Environmental.

What they came in and did was a full remediation, which means they pulled out all the wallboard itself — the drywall — they scrubbed down all the two-by-fours behind the wall, [and] they actually sanded floor. The floor was actually already stripped down to the subfloor at that time because we were putting in new wood floors anyway. So they came in and sanded the subfloors and they put sporicide in and biocide, [which] basically encapsulates any mold that would have been left behind and seals the area. Then they put mildew-resistant wallboard back in its place.

JS: Do you know what kind of wallboard they used to replace the affected area?

RM: The green stuff that is mold and mildew resistant.

JS: What do you recommend to other homeowners who have mold concerns?

RM: I think it's important to get a lot of estimates. Have people actually come to the house and take a look at it in order to give an estimate. Our estimate from one company ended up being a lot bigger job. After Bioserv did the analysis, they started pulling away board and found the job to be about three times as big. They honored their original estimate, which I was very impressed with. They stayed with their initial estimate and didn't say, "OK, it's twice as big, we're going to charge you twice as much."

That said, by getting other estimates, there were companies that wanted to charge in excess of $3,000 for the same job, for the same remediation, for the same mold inspection and same certificate of remediation. Definitely shop around and get some different companies to come in.

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Jeremy Stacy, “List-en Up!” associate producer
Daryl Vidal interview
Feb. 6, 2009

Jeremy Stacy:
Please give me your name, your business and your location for the record.

Daryl Vidal:
My name is Daryl Vidal and my company’s name is CMRS – The Live Handyman. We're located in Los Angeles and I've been in business for seven years.

JS: What kind of drywall product do you typically use?

DV: For drywall, obviously we use drywall, we [also] use greenboard [and] purpleboard to do all of our drywall. We use backer board for cement-based tile work.

JS: How do you determine what kind of drywall product to use when you're on a project?

DV: Any place where there's humidity or moisture we always use a moisture resistant type of drywall. Here in California, it's a lot of green[board], I've seen purple[board] and they do have blue[board], but it's basically a greenboard.  I typically like to use it in kitchens and in bathrooms where people have their showers — where the steam and humidity can build up.

JS: What is greenboard?

DV: Greenboard is the same thing as drywall. It's just got a mold additive to the gypsum in the middle. Then you have a paper that's a little thicker that’s also resistant to moisture and humidity. You will know it when you see it. It's [usually] green, [but] I've personally used greenboard, blueboard and purpleboard. There may be different colors, but chances are it is probably for moisture.

JS: So all those different colored boards are for moisture and mold resistance?

DV: Right. It's for moisture. It's for bathrooms.

JS: What questions should consumers ask when discussing drywall options with their contractor?

DV: I think the biggest thing for them to remember is the bathrooms and the kitchen area should have a different type of drywall for moisture because you've got your green board, your blue, your purple – I'm sure there's other colors – and you've got your paperless. I think as a consumer they need to ask that question because some contractors will forget or just won't use it at all. If they know the word moisture – mold-resistant drywall – then they're going to bring that to the attention of the contractor.

I would say just be sure the customer knows there is a mold-resistant and water-resistant drywall to use in the areas – bathrooms and kitchens – that they should bring it up and get the opinion of the contractor that's doing it.

JS: What should homeowners know about mold and drywall?

DV: I think personally that [mold] has been such an issue and I hear there's another product coming out that's going to be as good or better than what's out there now to address the mold issue for people.

The other thing people don't realize [is] in older homes, the homes were not airtight so there was a lot of fresh air circulating throughout the house. Whereas in today's houses, because of their energy efficiency, it's so airtight that unfortunately, they're more susceptible to getting mold. A lot of contractors should understand that and I think they do. I certainly know because my background in some other fields dealt with those types of situations.

If you don't have fresh air coming in from the cracks that are in there or whatever, then you have a tendency for humidity and moisture to build up in the house, creating mold. You also have to understand it doesn't take a lot of moisture or humidity to get mold. A lot of mold can't be seen anyway. You can't see a lot of mold. It's only when you see it visually that [homeowners] start asking questions. My experience taking things apart in kitchens and bathrooms, I find it all the time. They just haven't seen it. They have test kits and everything out on the market that even consumers can get themselves and do some testing.

JS: Can homeowners do anything to prevent mold from developing in their homes?

DV: It's ventilation, man. It's ventilation. You've got to have exhaust ventilation when you're cooking. That's the only thing they can do. I would recommend a homeowner demand to have a semi-gloss or gloss paint job, especially in a bathroom. If you're not going to do it in a kitchen, make sure you have proper ventilation. A kitchen is a lot wider space than a bathroom so it's very imperative that a homeowner would use a semi-gloss [paint] in there and use a greenboard or purpleboard. The most important thing is to make sure you have an exhaust in there.  

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Jeremy Stacy, “List-en Up!” associate producer
Barry Reid interview
Feb. 9, 2009

Jeremy Stacy:
Please give me your name and company name for the record.

Barry Reid: My name is Barry Reid and I work for Georgia-Pacific. I'm located in Atlanta and I've been with Georgia-Pacific for more than 20 years.

JS: What is paperless drywall?

BR: Paperless drywall, to see it, would look very similar to regular drywall. The difference is it has fiberglass mats in lieu of the paper facings you'd see in the regular drywall both on the front and the back.

JS: What is a fiberglass mat?

BR: It's a mat that would be used in lieu of paper. If you look at a regular piece of drywall, it's basically a sandwich and it has a thin paper on the face and it has a gypsum core and it has a thin paper on the back. That's what binds the gypsum together. With that, it's in sheets – 4-foot-by-8-foot sheets – that people take into their homes — into their basements and such — and nail it up to their framing.

The only difference with the paperless drywall is that those thin papers have been replaced with thin, coated sheets of fiberglass mat. They're coated to be user-friendly and they're coated to be smooth to simulate paper facers.

JS: What are the benefits of paperless drywall?

BR: Well, the challenge with regular drywall is when it gets into a moist environment it has a tendency to break down because of the paper facers and the moisture that penetrates into the core. But, more importantly in this day and age, it has the tendency to grow mold.

With the non-paper faced gypsum board – the ones with the fiberglass mats – those are highly, highly resistant to mold because it's not paper. Paper of course, is very organic and very susceptible to moisture and provides a food source for mold. The fiberglass mats don't provide the food source like paper.

JS: Where should consumers use paperless drywall in their homes?

BR: [They should use it] where they think, during either the construction or during the life of the building their exterior walls [will be] vulnerable to moisture. Residentially, we've seen a use in basements. Basements would probably be No. 1. Bathroom areas would be No. 2. Kitchen areas and washroom areas No. 3. If someone walks into a home center and they have concerns about the long-term moisture resistance and long-term durability of their wall assemblies, they'll want to use materials that are going to have proven over time to be highly moisture resistant and even more importantly, highly mold resistant because that obviously leads into other issues.

JS: How does the cost of paperless drywall compare to traditional drywall?

BR: If you went into one of the major homes centers today, you would see that product sells in the $11 to $12 range. Traditional drywall today, because of the economy, the pricing has gone down. It's in the $6 to $7 range. But, the paperless drywall is more akin to the moisture- or mold-resistant drywall in that it's more of a direct replacement for a product commonly called greenboard. Greenboard would sell in the $8 to $9 price point. So the difference isn't quite as great because people are looking to put greenboard in areas that they feel are vulnerable to moisture.

JS: What is greenboard?

BR: Greenboard is a typical wallboard that has a different type of paper. It's usually green, hence the name. It's usually put in areas that are susceptible to moisture, either short-term or long-term. But, the downside is it's still paper. Even though it's been treated or sized in such a manner to make it more moisture resistant than traditional drywall, it's still paper.

This here is just saying, oh here's a better mousetrap than greenboard. Here's a wallboard that's really designed to be used in areas that are vulnerable to moisture such as basements, bathrooms, kitchens and wash rooms.

JS: What kinds of studies have been done to determine paperless drywall's moisture resistance?

BR: The common test for mold resistance is an ASTM test. Virtually all manufacturers who produce a mold- and moisture-resistant drywall have tested to this ASTM test.

In addition, the paperless drywall manufactured by Georgia-Pacific is listed by a third party as mold resistant by a more stringent test than the ASTM test that I just referenced.  

JS: What questions should consumers ask contractors about paperless drywall?

BR: Their questions are going to be "What's that value?"  "Where should I use this?" and "What are my alternatives?"

The customer has several alternatives right now because they're going to be looking at this type of product in areas they consider vulnerable to moisture either short-term or long-term.

The first thing, of course, is they want to have the walls designed in such a way that moisture intrusion is minimized. But for belts and suspenders, they want to look at products that are going to resist moisture or are going to have that wiggle room that if it should get wet that they have the capability to dry prior to something worse happening [like] mold growing on the back of the wallboard or on the face of the wallboard.

Ultimately, knowing that you have a back and surface of a product that doesn't have paper at all - whether it's treated or non-treated — you've essentially eliminated that food source from the equation. So that's kind of the decision tree they're going to go through.

JS: How long has paperless drywall been on the market?

BR: The paperless drywall you see in the home centers today — the interior boards — have been on the market for five years and it's an extension of an exterior product that's been on the market for more than 20 years. 

JS: Is there anything else homeowners should know about mold and drywall?
 
BR: What we're seeing in the marketplace is more damage to homes because of water.

That is because our homes are better insulated than they have been in the past.  What's been challenging is we haven't done a good job as an industry [at] keeping the water out, but we’re getting better at it.

What happens is water gets into the buildings and homes, but water isn't getting out. The reason it isn't getting out is because we have all this insulation in our walls. Water has a tendency to stay in our walls. And as it has a tendency to stay in our walls, issues like mold [appear] because that water is just sitting there.

As our housing stock improves — and it will improve because energy will make it improve — more and more requirements are being placed on the build environment to have a higher energy efficiency in our buildings.

With these incredible energy efficiencies, we're going to have to have incredible moisture management strategies to complement these energy efficiency measures.

One way to do that is to design your walls to have that moisture forgiveness should the water get into that wall that it will give it enough time to dry out without the water impacting the building materials in that wall.