Jeremy Stacy, online content producer
Interview with Ron Staffa, general manager of Nyberg Exteriors
Sept. 2, 2009

Ron Staffa: My name is Ron Staffa and the company I work for is Nyberg Exteriors. My title is general manager and I’m also in charge of research and development of new products.

Jeremy Stacy: What is the most common material used for replacement windows?

RS: The most common material used today is vinyl for a replacement window.

JS: Why?

RS: I believe it's price. It's also got a lot to with the people who are selling vinyl windows seem to be making them sound like they're the greatest window, which is not always the case.

In my opinion the most durable window that's made today would be a fiberglass window. The advantage to a fiberglass window is minimal expansion and contraction and maximum strength. It's stronger than steel, but you don't have the expansion and contraction you would with a vinyl window. And because the whole window is fiberglass, you have all the same materials that are bonded together so you don't have dissimilar expansion and contraction in relation to say an exterior aluminum clad window and the interior is wood. Those two materials will expand and contract at different rates. That can cause problems over time.

I think most of the time when we're replacing a window, it's because people are just tired of their old, worn out windows. They say they don't go up and down the way they used to. “They need to be painted.” “I don't like the stain that's on them.” It's mainly aesthetic.

It's more of a touchy feely thing and with energy prices the way they've been over the last couple of years, people were really sensitive to the idea that they could save money by replacing what they have with a vinyl window.

That's not always the case. Windows are extremely difficult to insulate well. Windows are kind of strange. They're not rated the way the rest of the house is. Everything else is rated in R-value – the resistance of transmission of thermal material from change in temperature. I think probably the window industry came up with their rating because the R-rating of the very best window is so low that homeowners wouldn't be thinking that it’s an advantage to replace them.

From my understanding, the highest R-value on the highest rated thermal window is anywhere in the area of R-5 to R-6 and the government is mandating a minimum on new construction of R-21 in the walls.

I think a lot of the people that sell windows – mostly vinyl windows that have these super deals and attractions – they're working on people's emotions to get them all excited and pumped up to sell the products more on an emotional level instead of a practical one. 

Really, when everything is said and done, if somebody has an older home that has windows that can be refurbished, they're far better off refurbishing them than putting in a vinyl window. A good example would be to refurbish the interior of the window, replace the chains or the ropes and weights so the windows function properly mechanically. And if you put on a storm window, a nice new storm window, you are going to be very close to the R-value of the very best window on the market today. Most people don't know that.

I'm kind of the non-salesman salesman. I'm the one that if I'm in someone's house and they say, "I've been saving my money forever and I would really love to have new windows. I just can't afford these utility bills anymore," I'm going to tell them, "Don't put your money in windows. Let's see how much insulation you've got in your attic."

There's another company that I own and we do thermal imaging. For $200 we come in and test the house with a thermal imaging camera and we can see exactly what's leaking and for just a question of hundreds of dollars you can fix leaks and insulation and get a better payoff than you would spending a lot of money on windows. I don't like people to be taken advantage of – myself, the elderly, anybody.

In the window industry, there are a lot of sharks that go out there and all they want to do is make money with total disregard to the people they're selling the product to. I'm not going to say they're lying, but they could be advocates for improving this person's home without going to extremes.

JS: How do you decide if a window needs to be replaced?

RS: We sell plenty of windows. The big thing is, I think people just want them to function again. There's not a lot of people who refurbish windows anymore. I've never had somebody ask me. I wouldn't even know who to refer them to. I've done it on my own, but I don't want to do it as a business.

Let's say a customer calls in and I'll call them back and I'll say, "Do you have an idea of what kind of window you want?" Sometimes they'll know exactly what they want and we just go and we measure them and we quote them, which is fine. We don't really go around giving advice unless people ask for it. I think it's a great way to raise your kids, too. You know, let them get bruises and bumps on their own. I've been to visit too many customers where I'm telling them what I think they should do and I think they think that I'm just crazy or not interested.

I've had people say, "Gee, you really sound like you're not interested in selling us something," because I'm basically telling them they don't need new windows. But they wanted them, so I'm sure somebody sold them new windows.

I'd say that in general, we will only use products where the manufacturer gives good service. I don't mean to give a bum rap on anybody, but there's very few companies out that give very good service. They run customers around, they don't come out to fix the windows.

The window is a mechanical thing. It's not like a roof that just sits. You open and close it. You lock it. The kids’ baseball hits it. It's more sensitive to impact than most things in your house and it can need repair. To me, it's by the [window manufacturer] as much as the window.

JS: How can you make sure you're getting a good manufacturer?

RS: That's very difficult. The Internet is fabulous. There are no boundaries to the knowledge that you can gain if you can read. People can visit the website for the manufacturer that makes the windows and every manufacturer describes their window as the best. You don't really know until you buy it what's the best. I'd say you've got to trust the company that's installing the window.

I think you should always buy from a company where the person that comes out and quotes the windows for you is the one that's there making sure they get installed properly. A lot of companies, you see the salesman and he sells the work and you never see him again.

The salesperson or the project manager has got to be there. He measures the windows and he specifying and he's got to make sure that they get installed properly. You've really got to count on that guy.

I had a really super customer a couple of years ago – an elderly gentleman, just really chatty. I would go and visit him whenever I had a chance in the neighborhood. There was a large Midwestern window manufacturer that this gentleman called and their salesman came out and this gentleman ordered windows for his whole house to be replaced.

A few months after that, I visited him to give him a quote for siding and the siding we needed to install came up against the windows and I pointed out how we had to redo the exteriors on all the windows. They weren't plumb. It was a very poor installation.

I hate to bring that up to anybody because to me you're insulting them because now they don't like you because they made a choice and they're thinking "Now you made me look bad." I asked him who installed the windows and he told me the name of the company and he said, "Ron, but I loved this salesman. I would have bought anything in the world if he told me I needed it. He was just a master salesman. When he walked out the door, I bowed."

There are some real slick guys out there and they can talk a lot of people into a lot of things. That's going to happen today, tomorrow, forever. To me, that's what's good about Angie's List because people can see what other people are saying and the experience they're having.

The only bad thing I have to say about Angie's List is they need to get more people giving [reports]. I would say we have one out of 30 people submit a report. People need that. They need to know that so and so came out and I wouldn't even let them in the door. All you hear is, I hired them and they did a good job or they didn't do a good job. What about these other people that they saw that didn't use?

I watch the List a lot because it keeps us on task. It's just a super barometer of letting us know where we stand with people. It's helped us become a better company.

JS: How do you help homeowners decide whether or not to get new windows?

RS: We get a few emails off our website where people will ask for a quote and I will email them back and ask for different information. The email I sent to a person this morning in regard to their window quote was "Why do you want to replace the windows?" I listed questions. Is it because you don't like the way the windows you have right now look? Is it because the windows are drafty? Is it because the windows don't function? Is it because you want to save energy?

I think if someone wants to save energy, you don't go to your windows. These big companies that advertise on television and everything, they try to make everyone think that replacing your windows is just going to be a major advantage in lowering their heating and air conditioning costs and it's not.

JS: What does help with energy costs?

RS: It depends on the age of the house. Insulation. Air infiltration around the windows. Air infiltration in general in the wall. Those are the kinds of things that can be tested for and is something that the general public doesn't ask for too much.

Everyone needs to ask themselves why are we replacing the window? The wife might say, "I'm just tired of these windows. I'm tired of cleaning them." And that's a good point. An older window isn't going to be a tilt in window. A vinyl window is going to be easy to clean. But, do you want to go out and spend $20,000 on windows for your whole house when you can spend $150 a year to have them all cleaned?

The same holds true for the people that want these gutter guards to keep leaves out of their gutters. I'll quote a gutter guard installation and it's $1,500, $2,000, $3,000 and they're like "Oh great, I'll never have to get on the ladder again." And I say, "You ever had them cleaned?"

"No, I've never had them cleaned."

"Well, why don't you get a quote for cleaning your gutters?" You can have your gutters cleaned for $100. What is that, 30 years or more worth of gutter cleaning?

You know what, Jeremy, nothing is perfect. No window is going to be perfect. People just need to be more aware of how they spend their money, where they put it. Don't let somebody convince you of something that you need, when it comes to saving energy especially.

If it's something that you just love and want to have – I mean there's beautiful windows that I would say "Gosh, I would love to have those windows. They're so pretty and they would complement my home” – great, do it, that's super. But for somebody that just wants to save energy, no, it's not your window.

You don't replace your window for a value of what's 2-R. A window that you have right now has an R-value of three and you go to a five with a new window. That's not practical. If you have an R-value five in your wall and you can convert it to 21, now we're talking.

There's just one other thing that I want to tell the general public. When you're with a person – your initial contact with a company that has come to your home to sell you windows – I think you want to be proactive and ask the right kinds of questions about what you're really gaining from this person and their installation.

You want to try and work with someone who's really interested in doing something for you that's going to help you the best way that it can. And ask the questions like, "Gee, do I really need new windows?" "Am I really going to be saving money every month in my heating and air conditioning?"

When they give an answer, ask them what that's based on because if anybody is telling people they're going to be saving 20 percent on their heating and air conditioning with a window, I have not found anything to back that up. I'd love to.

I always want to try to be the person that is selling something that's a tangible product. I love to save money because the more money you save, the more money you have to spend on your family and the things that you love and appreciate.

People have to stop and think, how much are you going to love and appreciate the $20,000 in these windows? Windows are very expensive.

Don't buy from a salesman, buy from somebody that just wants to help you. If the guy's a salesman, he's obviously there to gain something from you and that's his main concern. If he's there to help you, he's going to make money too. Everybody needs someone to help them with something. Every home I've been in, there's always something that we can help them with.

If you just continually guide someone to what is the proper installation for the job, they'll always come back to you and say you're the guy that was honest enough to tell me five years ago that I didn't need windows and look at how nice they are. We had them repainted, everything's great and now we want our siding done and we trusted you enough to call you back.

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Jeremy Stacy, online content producer
Interview with Rhonda Steffes, owner of New Windows for America
Sept. 2, 2009

Rhonda Steffes: Rhonda Steffes, New Windows for America. I'm the owner and vice-president.

Jeremy Stacy: What are the most common types of replacement windows?

RS: Today most windows are replaced with vinyl. The reason is because vinyl is energy efficient, green because you never have to replace it again. There are some people who do wood windows. We do some of them, but I would say 95 percent of everything we sell is vinyl.

JS: When you say they last a lifetime, how long do you mean?

RS: The life span of the [vinyl] window is for the life of the home.

JS: What are trends you’re seeing with replacement windows?

RS: I guess people are looking more and more for something more energy efficient as the price of heating and cooling their home goes up. They're also looking for something to decrease those costs so they're putting in something more energy efficient. I'd say that's more of the trend than anything else. That's everyone's No. 1 concern.

A lot of times they feel drafts or it's cool around their windows or their energy bills are high. New windows can decrease energy costs by anywhere from 20 to 50 percent. There's also triple-pane windows out there that can make your home even more energy efficient.

JS: What are reasons to get replacement windows?

RS: A lot of times they will have frost or mold in their windows. Condensation. Cracked glass. Sometimes people already so have double-paned glass, but they're older or made out of wood and a lot of times there's seal failure in between the two panes of glass. That means the seal is broken and they're not getting the energy efficiency they once were.

JS: Does age of the home have a factor in deciding whether to repair or replace the window?

RS: No, not really. We're replacing windows in houses built in the late 1800s to anything built in the early 2000s.The more modern the house, it seems like the more problems people have with their windows.They're not built as well as they were in the years past.

JS: How can people looking to get new windows make sure they're getting something of quality?

I guess you want to look and see what the energy efficiency ratings are on the windows. Right now with the tax credits, the requirements are for the window to have a solar heat gain coefficient of .30 or less and a U-value, which measures the amount of heat being lost through the window, of .30 or less. Those are real good qualities to look for and make sure they have before you put them into your home.

JS: Is there a time when it's better to repair a window rather than replace it?

RS: I guess if they were high quality windows that were put in in the first place that have low-e and argon in them, you may want to just repair them. But if the windows are more than 10 or 15 years old, you’re better off replacing them because of the energy efficiencies that are put in the windows now that weren't required 10 years ago.

The only other time you would maybe want to repair the window is if you live in a historical district. A lot of the historical areas do not allow a vinyl replacement to be put in and they will only allow you to repair the window.

JS: What are some benefits of a replacement window?

RS: You actually get a 73 percent return on investment so what realtors have found is that something people are looking for is energy-efficient, maintenance-free windows. You don't have to paint them. They're maintenance-free. They're easier to clean. You can flip it in and clean the outside windows from the inside of the house. Also, you don't need storm windows anymore, which improves the look of the home.

Remodeler Magazine puts out different remodeling projects that people can do in their home and what's the best value – what you get back as a percentage. If you're going to turn around and sell your house within the first year [of the remodel] and you put in $10,000 worth of windows, you would get at least $7,300 dollars back if you sold it within the first year [of the remodel]. Siding is usually No. 1 and windows and kitchen are usually No. 2.

JS: Can you recoup your investment on energy savings alone?

RS: You need to figure out what your energy bill is per year. If you save 30 percent per year, it would take a couple of years, but you eventually get them paid for on their own by just the energy efficiency.

JS: Can you repair replacement windows?

RS: Yeah, everything can be repaired. Most companies, including our own, have a warranty — a lifetime warranty — on [the windows].

JS: What are some tips to select a quality installer?

RS: When you're selecting an installer for windows, a good thing to look for is somebody that's been certified through an association like the American Window and Door Institute or have some type of training certificate would be good to look for. Years of experience and making sure they're a licensed contractor is probably No. 1.

I suppose a red flag would be if they tell them it's not necessary to pull a permit or it's not necessary to be licensed. That would be a good indication to run the other way.

JS: How long does it take to install a window?

RS: That's a good question. The opening is only open 10 or 15 minutes. The time consumption comes from trimming it out and putting the new trim on the exterior and the interior. One window probably takes on average an hour to two hours based on the experience of the installer.

JS: What about the average price of a double-hung, double-pane vinyl window?

JS: I'd say the average price for a window is $400 to $600 depending on the size and that's usually including installation.

JS: What can homeowners do to care for their windows and extend their life?

RS: With a vinyl window there is virtually no maintenance that needs to be done. Just good old Windex.

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Jeremy Stacy, online content producer
Interview with Kathy Krafka-Harkema, spokesperson for Pella Window and Door
Aug. 31, 2009

Kathy Krafka-Harkema: My name is Kathy Krafka-Harkema and I'm a spokesperson for Pella Windows and Doors.

Jeremy Stacy: What are the common materials used in replacement windows?

KKH: Well there's a variety of types and styles of windows and door available made from a variety of materials. Everything from vinyl to fiberglass to wood to wood that's protected with aluminum cladding. So it's important to take into consideration your climate, your budget and your style of home when you're choosing the material that's right for you and your home.

JS: What is the most common material used?

KKH: All of the materials are very common. I would say fiberglass windows are newer to the market so you would tend to see more vinyl windows and more windows on the market today, but fiberglass windows are growing in popularity.

JS: How does region play a role in choosing windows?

KKH: You might live in a climate like the Pacific Northwest where it rains all the time so a vinyl window might be a great choice for a wet rainy climate condition or perhaps a climate like Florida. On the other extreme, you might have the extreme heat like Arizona and you might want a product like fiberglass that can really withstand the extremes in terms of heat.

Or you might want the natural warmth and beauty of wood so choosing wood might be the best option for you. And when it's protected with aluminum cladding on the exterior, you can get a variety of colors on the exterior, the protection of the aluminum cladding, but that natural appeal of wood on the interior.

JS: What are the trends in replacement windows?

KKH: One of the biggest trends we're seeing in windows today is people are viewing them as not just a functional item in their home, but also a fashion statement. By that we mean they're accessorizing the window. They're adding stylish grills to convey everything from a contemporary look to a colonial look. People are also accessorizing with screens. A screen that is so sheer that it's nearly invisible is a popular new trend.

JS: What are signs it's time to replace your windows?

KKH: If you feel cold air coming in or around your window, it might be a sign that it's time for that window to go. Or if you see water stains coming in and around the window, again it might be time to replace it with an energy efficient option. If you've got a single-pane window, when it comes to energy efficiency you can do much better with double-or triple pane options. 

In fact, now is a great time to think about replacing windows because the U.S. government is offering tax credits for replacing those old, inefficient options with more energy efficient options. You can claim a tax credit of up to $1,500 or 30 percent of the cost of the replacement windows like those with the Energy Star or those approved by the government now through 2010.

JS: Is it ever better to repair a window?

KKH: That's going to depend on case-by-case basis. If there's no issue with moisture infiltration into your wall cavity and the window frame itself is intact, you can get a pocket replacement application that allows you to keep your interior trim or wall paper intact, but yet get a more energy efficient window in there.

What you want to do is work with your construction professional or if you’re a do-it-yourselfer, really take a look and see ­­– has the window itself degraded? Has moisture gotten into the wall cavity? If you're seeing those signs, it’s typically a sign that you should do what's called a full tear-out or a full replacement. Likewise, if it's just maybe a sash that's worn, you could do a pocket-type application.

JS: What about older homes in historic districts?

KKH: The beauty is that companies like Pella can make a window that looks like those of historic days gone by, but have the energy efficiency of today's technology. You might be able to replicate the look of a window made 100 years ago and still have today's energy efficiency.

You want to work with you local preservationist and any local building codes that are in effect in your area and you can choose windows that have a very classic look or a very contemporary look depending on your specific code requirements in your area.

We make windows in quarter inch increments. What that means is if your home was built 100 years ago and those sizes that were popular back then, but aren't quite so popular today, we can still make the sizes you need to fit the openings to help seal out air and moisture for the best overall fit and energy efficiency.

JS: What are some benefits of replacement windows?

KKH: You can take a bite out of your utility bill with selecting a well-made, properly installed window. You want to upgrade in terms of panes of glass to go to at least a double-pane or in some cases a triple-pane option with argon for additional efficiency.

Also, today's windows are safer. They tilt in for cleaning in the case of double hung windows. That means you don't have to get up and get outside on a ladder to clean your windows. There are also casement models ­– many people call those crank out models – and they open more fully to allow you to clean both the interior and exterior of the glass from the inside of your home. 

Really, there's many more innovations in today's windows that can help you update the look of your home and add to the value of it. Things like blinds and shades between the panes of glass mean that you have the beauty and style and the flexibility to change those blinds or shades.

When you have blinds or shades protected between glass, you're also accumulating fewer airborne allergens. That's a good thing for people with asthma or allergies or pets or children in the home. Or for people who would just rather do something other than spend time cleaning those blinds and shades.

And you can also have grills that are in between the panes of glass as well. So you have the look of individual panes and divided light, but the ease of cleaning a single interior and exterior surface. Grills ad more character to your home. They add a look of distinction. And, you can have many different grill styles.

In addition to those that are in between the panes of glass, you can have grill that are either permanently adhered to the exterior of the glass, or removable grills so that you can have a colonial look today and a contemporary look tomorrow.

JS: What is the typical life span of a replacement window?

KKH: That's going to vary by product. You're going to want to consult your manufacturer's warranty. Other things that can affect the performance of a window are just your climate, the type of exposure it has to the elements. For example, if you're in a cold climate and you get a lot of snow, a lot of rain, it's exposed to a lot of sunlight, that product may have a different life-span than a product that isn't exposed to as many harsh elements.

JS: Can replacement windows be repaired?

KKH: You want to look at your specific manufacturer. We maintain parts long after we manufacture them. If you're moving into an existing home and you've got Pella windows, you may notice there's a handle missing from a casement crank window, Pella maintains parts for products long after we manufacture them. So just check with your manufacturer. You can replace window sashes, but it's going to depend on what the part is.

To keep your window performing at its best, there are things you can do in terms of maintenance. As we're going into the fall months, it's a good time to give your windows and doors a check up just like you take yourself in for a checkup or your car in for a checkup periodically.

What you want to do is test them. Make sure they open quickly and easily, but they close completely. One good thing to do is when you're cleaning the glass on the windows, always select a cleaner that's vinegar-based rather than one that's ammonia-based. A vinegar-based cleaner will help keep the glass surfaces clean. The danger in using ammonia-based cleaners is they can actually cloud the glass and end up attracting more dirt. Clean glass is more energy efficient too.

Likewise, you'll want to sweep the tracks free of any dirt or debris. A lot of times leaves can get in there. Just take a dry paintbrush and brush that out. Or, if there's more dirt and debris there, just take the brush attachment of your vacuum and clean out those tracks for greater energy efficiency.

JS: How should you go about looking for a replacement window and installer?

KKH: Well, you want to look for a well-made product that's designed and tested to perform. You want to read the warranty that the manufacturer provides to understand explicitly what it does and doesn't cover. You want to do business with a company that has a good reputation and that will be in business in the future. Ways to determine that are to check references. Do your research.

Also check with your Better Business Bureau. Look for things like the J.D. Power and Associates ranking of customer satisfaction. Then, ask your neighbors. You really do want to do your homework to get the most for your time and your money and to get a product that is not only selected well for you home, but one that is installed properly for the best performance.

JS: What's the typical price of a standard double-hung, dual-pane replacement window?

That price is going to vary depending on the material you choose and the options you select like grills and blinds and shades. The best thing to do is get a qualified expert into your home to measure the size that you need for proper fit and then do some comparison shopping yourself comparing the materials and options that are the best fit for your house.

But, you get what you pay for when it comes to windows and doors. It's very important to select quality-made, designed and tested materials because a window and a door are two things that are actually seen from both the inside and outside of your home. You use a door every day. Windows allow natural light and air into your home and help protect it from the elements.

When you want to determine how much to invest in windows and doors, look at the best you can afford. Also check with your utility company. Many are offering rebates for replacing old inefficient windows with more energy efficient options. And now is the time to collect the U.S. tax credit now through the end of 2010 for making those energy upgrades.

A window or door will pay for itself through increased energy efficiency so you can take a bite out of that utility bill every month with a more efficient option. It also helps keep your home warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer.

JS: Is there anything else you would like to add about windows?

A couple of other things when it comes to maintenance and checking your windows and doors, you'll want to look for the interior and exterior finishes around your windows and doors. If you see flaking and peeling paint, it may mean that its time to refinish the unit or it may be time to replace it all together.

You'll also want to pay attention to the caulk around the windows and doors. You want to make sure your caulk is in place to seal out air and moisture.

If you live in a coastal location, keep in mind the effects of salt spray and [salt] fog can damage components in your home so you may want to rinse those units off with clear water from time to time to help reduce the effects of salt spray and salt fog.

Bottom line, regardless of the type of window or door you choose, its essential to install it properly for best performance. Windows and doors are not only a beautiful item in our home and allow us access to our home, but the can also be an emergency escape route in the event a fire or other emergency. It's important to designate a window and door in every room in your home as an emergency exit and then to plan and practice a home escape drill at least a couple of times a year. Those windows and doors that don't open and close easily are candidates for replacement.

I do have a couple of other thoughts on choosing a contractor. As you're thinking about tackling your remodeling project, some things to think about are will this project add to the overall curb appeal of your home or its value? Can you increase energy efficiency and help reduce energy costs? Will the improvement help make your home more comfortable. And, will it help you cut your maintenance time and expense overall. Those are things to think about when you're remodeling.

If you're think about who to work with on a remodeling project, you may want to think about retaining an architect or a designer if you're thinking about a major facelift for your home. You want to ask for referrals from a reputable contractor and you want to check credentials.

It's really key when working with a contractor to have open, consistent communication. You want to agree on a plan with your contractor, determine the exact needs for your home project — a schedule, a timeline, and then a budget. You want to understand before you get started what your project is likely to cost, when it's likely to be completed and then solicit bids for your project.

Do your comparison shopping upfront and understand how to get the most for your time and for your money.

Jeremy Stacy, “Listen!” associate producer
Ed Sanchez, owner, Window Restoration and Repair, Los Alamitos, Calif.
Interview – Aug. 6, 2009

Ed Sanchez: My name is Ed Sanchez and my company is Window Restoration and Repair. My location is in Los Alamitos, Calif.

Jeremy Stacy: How long have you been in the window business?

ES: Since 1983. I started out working for a window manufacturer of aluminum windows.

After being in that business for [nearly 15 years] … I eventually decided to start [restoring windows] because it fits better with my personality. I'm the kind of guy who will keep a car for 330,000 miles before changing it out so it works for me to repair things rather than replace them. I guess it was a sort of green way of thinking before I knew what green was.

I realized that the windows I was pulling out for 10 to 15 years were actually better ,longevity-wise, than the windows I was putting in. It's not so much the face of the vinyl windows, it's the plastic injected molded parts that assemble the window that bring the problems. And being how those companies don't think like General Motors where they keep parts for 20 years, many times in order to keep up with the trends, they're changing parts every single year and they're not going to keep parts for a 10-year-old window.

JS: Why do homeowners come to you to fix their windows?

ES: The common reason why they come to me is they want to maintain the architecture of their home and they're afraid if they change them out, it will change. It will change the look of their home. It's very much a visual thing I think because the newer windows look different. Even the new wood windows look different.

There are other reasons. Some people come to me because of the fact that they don't want to spend the money on new windows. It's just simply an economic reason.

Sometimes they come to me because the windows are just literally not working and they're burning up in the summer or they're leaking air and sometimes water and they need to deal with it because it's causing problems. All of these things are very, very fixable.

Sometimes they have wood rot problems that can be repaired. In some cases it makes more sense to replace certain wood than to go through the work of using epoxies and things like that, which is what I use if I'm dealing with damaged wood.

JS: What's the difference between restoration and repair?

ES: As far as we're concerned they're very similar. For the restoration, it's a two-part thing. It's the operation of the window and the structural integrity. The visual and the painting aspects of the window, there are many, many painters that love to do that sort of thing so we leave the painting aspect of the restoration to the painters and I refer people all the time.

We deal with the stuff they can't do, which is normally the physical manipulation of the window and the structural integrity of it and also just the plain, simple operation of it.

A lot of times the operation can be made to be much better than the day it was new in 1928. There are little tricks that have made them able to operate even better than they would back then because of some technology changes — lubricants and adjustment techniques.

JS: What kind of windows do you restore?

ES: I restore a lot of wood windows, double-hung windows and the ones that go up and down. I repair a lot of casement windows. From the 1920s to the late ’30s there was a lot of in-swinging casement windows [back then]. Those are important that they're adjusted right because they could be the most problematic as far as water infiltration and air [is concerned].

In fact, because of that, many manufacturers don't even want to touch those so many times you won't even see those again, which is another reason to keep them because they're going to be more unique every single year.

Another beauty of those in-swinging casement windows is that they're sort of romantic. It's a style that has kind of gone away.

JS: How do you charge for your work?

ES: There's a basic charge for what we call a tune-up. In the tune-up we pretty much restore it to the original operation of the window back when it was new. That's the majority of what we do.

In some cases, the wood is so bad it makes sense to replace that portion of the window. Not the whole window, just that portion — perhaps the sash — that's the part that wraps around the glass.

In some cases, near the ocean, we have to replace hardware, which has rusted or corroded. I must say, other than just on the ocean, if a window has been fitted properly — which can change over time — houses settle and they change the shape of the sash and the window has to be adjusted — when they're adjusted, the hardware should last 50 years plus because there's nothing to wear it down. But, if it doesn't close and you're cranking that thing shut, that's when you're going to have problems with sticking and putting stress on the hardware.

We're getting the operation of the window like it was when it was new. We're making sure that it structurally is worth painting and keeping up indefinitely. And if it isn't, then we end up letting them know that it doesn't make sense to fix this. We should replace that one. In some cases, I just replace one out of 25 windows.

JS: What factors must homeowners weigh when deciding between restoration and replacement?

ES: If they care about [originality], number one. Another one is if the whole neighborhood has changed out windows and if the home is a newer style home and it's not such a factor to have older windows, sometimes it just makes more sense to replace them.

It has more to do with the architecture of the home. Many homes after the 1950s, some of those, the way they were constructed and all, it's not so desirable because the wood that was used after World War II is not of the same grade that was used before the World War II.

The wood is a big thing. The wood of the older style windows came out of old trees. The way a tree works is the older it is, the more toxic the sap is to a bug. The other thing is, these old-style windows, many times, they would dip the timbers in a borate solution, which was wonderful for protecting it against bugs and even mold. Many times it was just an order of business. That's the way they did things back then. They would dip the wood in this borate and let it soak so it would seep in and they could paint over it.

To take something that had that much work put into it and pull it out and put something modern is sometimes not the wisest choice.

Another reason to replace a window is if a person is in a climate where it gets really, really cold. There are things that could be done to the window. On the east coast, they do storm windows, but on the west coast, there's no need for a storm window.

Like in the San Fernando Valley, some people might prefer to have dual pane windows. And another thing, in certain districts the code is you have to replace it. If you replace it, you have no choice. The law is you have to replace with dual. If that's the case you have to be aware of that.

JS: How can homeowners keep their wooden windows operating properly?

ES: One thing is they have to make sure they fit right. If they don't open and close easily, it causes a stress to the wooden joints and if you flex the wooden joints too much, you actually provide a space where moisture can get in.

If the putty that's up against the glass — the wood putty or the glazing putty — lifts from the glass and water gets in behind it, that could end up doing damage to the sash. The sash is the four pieces of wood that's wrapped around the glass.

The way you keep that putty from lifting is that you make sure it's painted properly. There are techniques in painting that in many cases aren't employed because it takes a little more time to paint it properly. But, if you do, you're windows should last a long, long time.

JS: How can homeowners make their windows more energy efficient?

ES: One of the things they should consider is there are ways of adjusting the windows just the way that they are. If they're adjusted properly and fitted properly, they could seat wood to wood with a minimal amount of air infiltration.

Now, there's another step we can take and we do it quite bit where we can now weather strip these old-style wood windows to seal every bit as well as the newer modern type of wooden windows. You can get them to seal well in regards to air infiltration.

The only thing a vinyl or a modern window has going for it is the dual pane aspect. That's just something the older windows don't have. But, as a result of not having dual pane glass, you're never going to get fogging in your older windows. And once you change out your windows, you can never go back. They're not going to let you go back unless you're in a specific historic district.

JS: Is there anything else you’d like to add about window repair?

ES: There are plenty of people who don't have a clue that their windows are good. They just figure that if there's paint chipping, it's garbage because the replacement window business is pretty much predicated on that way of thinking. It's funny because I tell people sometimes that the business I'm in is the penance that I pay for all the beautiful wood windows I used to pull out and put in aluminum and eventually I even put in vinyl thinking that I was doing a good thing. As time went on I saw how many repairs came up as a result of these types of windows, literally within 10 years.

I've been around long enough to see these things come back at me. I had one where I literally changed the window to aluminum and 20 years later, the next people that had bought the home asked me to pull out the aluminum windows — they didn't know I had put them in — and put in wood like it was originally.

The shame about it is I even told them, I said, "I put those in and the sad thing is the windows I'll be putting in aren't even as good as the ones I pulled out." And I didn't know that back then. I thought they were garbage and that was the way I was trained. But in time, let me tell you, it's not garbage. It's really a crying shame that people don't know once it's gone, 10 years later they have fogging in the glass, they got parts coming loose and they just say, "Let's change them again."

And of course, that's great for the replacement business. They get the new thing and the new colored windows and new materials of the decade, but they change them out like people change out computers. It's a shame because those old windows could be sealed up and the only weak point to them is single pane.

If you weigh out the amount of energy savings that you'll benefit from and you amortize it out, in our life times, we will not pay for those windows. We just won't. That's what people have to realize. If they just like to have the newest thing, then fine. You replace you cars every five years, replace your windows every 10-15 years, and you're probably a happy camper.

But, to the guy that wants to buy something and hang on to it — like me — and feel proud of it that it's the original one — or not even that just from a financial standpoint — it's more economical and cost-effective to keep the original stuff. Not to mention, the people that buy an older home, especially today, really care about original.

If they want a modern house, it's very easy to buy a modern house. It's not even that expensive. But to buy an older home, people care about the older things and you get points by having an older window that was made back in 1937 with that home. That's where maintaining and restoring them can really pay off and not just from a personal standpoint of liking the original, but from a financial standpoint of it actually making dollars and cents to keep them.

To the cheapskates of the world and to the purists of the world, it's not just the little tweaky purists that drive Model-T Fords, it's not just those people it's the people that are looking at the dollars and cents.

By the way, if you're going to buy a vinyl window, you have make sure you buy a good one. You're better off buying anything else but a cheap vinyl window because ... of all the windows that I sell, there's a point of diminishing returns where I have to tell people it's just not worth putting money into this product.

Jeremy Stacy, “Listen!” associate producer
Alison Hardy, owner, Window Woman of New England, Topsfield, Mass.,
Interview – Aug. 3, 2009

Alison Hardy: Alison Hardy, Window Woman of New England, we're in Topsfield, Mass. We have been in business for six years.

JS: How did you get into the window restoration business?

AH: My husband and I have owned a series of old houses and I got tired of hearing people say, "Oh, just replace the windows." I said, "I can fix these." So I started fixing ours and I started fixing friends' and I decided it was time to leave the textile industry and fix windows for good.

JS: What’s the most common reason people come to you?

AH: Typically it's because they love the old glass in their windows and they want to save them. Often it's a unique shape like an arch top window or a bowed window that are very difficult and expensive to get these days. It all depends on what the particular house's characteristics are, but typically it's people that love the old glass.

JS: What are common repairs you make?

AH: You know, most of them are very simple. [The windows] don't open. They don't close all the way, which is usually a very simple fix by fixing the ropes on them. Broken glass is another one that happens a lot. Usually it's just that the windows are difficult to open or close.

JS: What’s the difference between window restoration and window repair?

AH: In full restoration we pull the windows out of their openings, we bring them back to our shop, we take all the paint off of them and do whatever repairs are necessary and then fully reglaze and repaint them and put them back in. It's a very long, time-consuming process. It's about 20 to 24 hours per window to do.

In a repair situation, it could be anything where it's replacing broken ropes, replacing glass, adding weather stripping, but we don't tend to remove all the paint and do the repairs.

Typically in a full restoration, either the window is falling apart or someone is doing a whole house renovation and they want the windows as sparkling as they were 100 years ago.

The vast majority of our customers are just doing repairs.

JS: How do you charge for a job?

AH: It's basically estimating the number of labor hours involved because all of our work is really just labor. We have some materials, but the majority of the cost of it is labor. For example to replace all of the ropes in a window — and there are four ropes in a window — is about an hour of labor so it would be about $75. If we were to do a full restoration, it's like 20 to 24 hours per window, so those get expensive.

JS: What kind of windows can be repaired?

AH: Almost anything made before 1960 can be repaired.

JS: What types of problems are associated with newer windows?

AH: The newer windows, especially the ones with the double-insulated glass, the seal breaks and they fog up. It's a very common problem. You have to order a new factory-sealed glass unit, which is almost as expensive as getting a whole new window.

Also the construction of the windows is not the good mortise and tenon construction of the older windows. If a corner is rotted on a newer window, there's nothing we can repair. It's just gone. Whereas on the older ones, you'll have bits and pieces of it that are still there that can be put back together.

Also the quality of the wood for the older ones is worth restoring. The newer ones, it's like they're made of cardboard. I mean, we could repair them, but why bother?

JS: When should a homeowner consider window restoration or repair?

AH: Typically if they're finding that their windows are hard to operate, that's when they usually call us about fixing them and we can usually correct it before it gets to a full restoration.

However. if they bought a house and one of the windows is propped up by shear luck, well then it needs a full restoration.

A lot of homeowners are getting proactive about doing home maintenance and doing preventative maintenance. So when they see problems that comes crashing down and the glass is broken, they call us then we can talk about adding weather stripping and upgrading from chord to chain — all things that will make further maintenance down the line much easier.

JS: What factors must homeowners weigh when deciding between restoration and replacement?

AH: Really right now it's coming down to an issue of cost. It's much cheaper to fix windows than it is to replace them. We just did a house that probably has 1950s- 1960s-era Anderson windows that are in tough shape, but they're not falling apart. They're OK. It was $5,000 to replace them and the repairs we did to get them so the cranks now work, they close fully, they can be locked fully, they're reglazed — they're ready for painting, basically — was around $500. The homeowner was thrilled! It's kind of like, that was a no-brainer.

We can do some simple fixes that are generally around $200 to $300 per window and the window will last another 100 years. Versus replacing a window that will cost three times that much and last 10 to 15 years.

Everyone who does [window] restoration prices differently. We tend to price by the number of panes of glass in a window. If you have large single pane over a large singe pane, which we call a one over one, those are really inexpensive.

When it gets to the ones that have little tiny squares of glass — where you have like 18 to 24 panes in a window — that gets really, really, really expensive. It is so much labor. You just have to imagine sanding and scraping all those little corners. It's like we don't have four corners any more, we have 24 times four corners.

JS: Can you repair new windows?

AH: Sadly, that is the problem with the new windows. They are designed to be replaced, not repaired. We have done some repairs [on newer homes]. We did a house that was seven years old that all of the springs that hold the window up and down on the sides — every single one was broken.

Luckily, they were able to get replacement channels from the window company. We put them all in. They may only last another seven years, but it's worth asking the window manufacturer if they have pieces and parts like that so they can at least be kept working.

But, when it gets to the point where the glass is fogged for example, you might as well just get a replacement window for a replacement window.

JS: What are misconceptions people have about window restoration?

AH: I think the hardest one is people think [window restoration] is only for historic houses and that it must be so much more expensive than getting replacement windows.

Time and again we have heard that we're so much cheaper than replacement windows. And we work on very modest houses because people just want everything that's in the house to stay in the house. They don't want to just keep throwing things into dumpsters. They want to take a more prudent and pragmatic approach to maintaining their house.

The one that gets me the most is people saying, "My house isn't historic." It's OK! It's doesn't have to be.

JS: What can homeowners do to maintain their windows?

AH: Well, I have to say this weekend even I, who restores windows, I was really bad and I have neglected my own house's windows. So I went around and vacuumed up all the windowsills because there's a lot of dirt that collects there over the winter and all of that dirt traps water and all of that water will eventually rot the wood. Keeping the window wells clean goes a long way towards maintaining your windows.

Another thing people don't realize is that you can wax the channels that the windows run in so they run a whole lot smoother. That alone, because that's the majority of what people's complaints are — they're hard to operate — just by waxing them once a year you can make them so much easier. And that puts so much less stress on the chords so they don't break. The whole process is much better.

Cleaning and waxing. Those are my suggestions.

JS: How does the energy efficiency of a wood window compare with a replacement window?

AH: There are a number of studies. Probably the biggest one was done at the University of Vermont in like 1997 and I believe the difference in efficiency was all of about $1 per window per year — especially when you factor in the cost of the replacement windows. If an old window is well maintained with a good storm window, it is every bit as efficient as a new window.

There's currently a study being done by the National Trust for Historic Preservation, which should be published this winter. I believe they've already been very surprised at the results they've been getting testing the old windows with the new windows.

What's interesting is when people are concerned about energy efficiency, they immediately look at the windows. But, what we have heard from home energy auditors over and over again is that there are many, many more leaky areas in a house besides windows and doors.

I always strongly encourage people to get a home energy audit first before spending money on anything. Find out where the leaks are. Don't assume anything.

We had a house where the owner was complaining about the front door leaking terribly. We were about to weather strip it and they had the energy auditor in it and it turned out there was a hole in the foundation, which is where all the cold air was coming in. It was very simple to fix. Thank goodness we didn't waste our time putting weather stripping on the door when that wasn't really the problem.

When people are really concerned about energy efficiency, don't assume anything. You may feel a draft in one place, but it could totally be coming from a different source.

Get the energy audit first, then attack the problem.

JS: How can a person make their wood windows more energy efficient?

AH: The simplest one is making sure the window is fully closed and locked. A lot of times we'll find the upper sash has fallen down and it gets painted into that position. So if the homeowner feels so inclined, they can free that up and get it pushed all the way up where it should be.

We've seen people put little blocks of wood to hold it in place, sticks to hold it in place — whatever it takes — but get the top one all the way up and get the lower one all the way down and get a good lock on it.

People think that the lock is for security, but the lock is really part of the weather tightness of the window. It pulls everything together and holds it off against the draft. That's a $14 fix that people should definitely make. I go into houses all the time that don't have locks and I'm like, "You have to understand, it's part of the weather stripping system and security."

JS: Tell me about the “green” aspect of older, wood windows.

AH: Comparing energy efficiency with old windows versus new windows, you have to look at the whole life cycle of what goes into them. With the old windows, you have wood that's probably 100-plus years old. It's already been milled. It's already been shaped and formed and installed. Versus a new window that has to have factory-made components so you have a tremendous energy difference between the old windows and the new ones to begin with. Then, if you're only going to get a small bit of energy efficiency improvement by installing a new window, and you're losing an old window, then we're really making a negative effect on the environment.

For saving a few kilowatt-hours, we're spending a tremendous amount of kilowatt-hours to manufacture a window, install it and throw away the old window. The whole green cycle of the production of windows and the maintenance of windows — if you look at the whole picture, then keeping your old windows is much more energy efficient.

JS: How can someone find a window restoration specialist?

AH: Certainly looking at companies like [Angie's List], looking in the yellow pages and asking around at your historic commissions.

I would ask a builder because a lot of times they do know of us or a historic commission — people who are involved with saving old houses. And then just the basic resources like the Yellow Pages or an online directory of some sort.

Twinkle VanWinkle, “Listen!” associate producer

Martin DeVincenti, owner, Benchmark Painting and Carpentry, Palm Beach, Fla.

Interview: July 23, 2009

 

Twinkle VanWinkle: Can I start off by getting your name, business and location for the record please?

Martin DeVincenti: It’s Mark DeVincenti with Benchmark Painting and Carpentry and we are located in Boynton Beach, Fla.

 

TVW: How long have you been in this business?

MD: About 15 years.

 

TVW: What would be an average interior painting estimate?

MD: Assuming you do everything — walls, ceiling, trim, inside closets ­— it’s somewhere in the neighborhood of $2,000.

 

TVW: How about the exterior?

MD: In my area, because of the type of home — because homes around here are mainly stucco and trim and no windows, mainly a door and a garage door — about $1,800.

 

TVW: What would you look for as signs that it is time to repaint your exterior?

MD: Typically, look for cracking in the stucco. Or if you take your finger and run it across the paint and the paint comes off in your hand, it’s chalking. Basically the film has broken down and that’s a good indication that it’s time to paint. Mildew, dirt and things like that.

 

TVW: What does a standard exterior paint job include?

MD: A standard paint job would include power washing, which would clean off the chalky paint, any mildew and dirt. Just kind of get the surface ready. Then, typically, you go through and repair any cracks in the stucco. Basically try to waterproof the outside of the house. Basically repairing the stucco, caulking windows, caulking the fascia, that type of thing. Sanding the doors, if there are doors to be painted. Then typically, the next step on the paint job would be to apply a primer, sealer. Then it’s typically the same thing, but people use different names for it. It’s like a base coat. Then you can do either one or two coats of finish paint. If you do a similar color you could probably do just one coat — a basic paint job.

 

TVW: What is the lifetime of an exterior paint job?

MD: Five to seven years is a good average, with good quality paint.

 

TVW: How about interiors? What do you do to prepare for interior?

MD: Interior is the same thing; sand the walls, fill in the cracks, patch holes, that type of thing. Caulking, the trim, just basically getting it ready. In the inside you have to be a little more careful because you have to wipe down the walls and get the dust off and things like that. You don’t always have to do a primer. It just depends on if you are doing a color change or you may prime if you have water stains or patches that you just fixed. Those need to be spot primed just that area. But particularly if you’re just going over a flat paint, you don’t necessarily need to prime it.

 

TVW: What would be the lifetime on an interior paint job?

MD: Depends upon the use of the house. If it’s just a couple of people living in there, and they’re not dragging their hands across the walls, then it’ll probably last longer. But if you have a house full of kids in and out and lots of traffic, then it will wear more quickly. Outside there is not much as far as the life, because it really depends on the weather conditions. No sticky fingers on the walls, throwing darts at the walls. You don’t really have that on the outside as much. On the outside you can maintain if two, three years down the road you start to see a little mildew or dirt, you just have it cleaned — light pressure and [mildewcide] detergent — and that will maintain the freshness of the paint job. It’s like anything; you just have to maintain it. Just not as often.

 

TVW: So most of what you work with in Palm Beach area is stucco?

MD: Yeah, most of it is stucco and trim. Occasionally you will find an older neighborhood, some wood siding, other services, some brick. But that is not typical for southeast architecture.

 

TVW: So, with stucco, what are your main problems?

MD: You have more mold issues and mold spots and things like that which can be cleaned with pressure washing.

 

TVW: DO you use any low or no VOC paints on any of your jobs?

MD: Yes, we use it quite a bit actually. We try to offer it as an alternative. Some people have higher allergies, or they don’t like the smell of fresh paint and we can give that as an alternative. And then commercial spaces like offices where people are there all the time.

 

TVW: Do you uses any low/no VOC paints on exterior?

MD: No, not necessarily, but a lot of the paints now they are manufacturing are going lower and lower on the VOCs. They are trying to move in that direction. Benjamin Moore has come out with a product called Aura and it started as an interior product, and now they have an exterior product. That’s a green paint, low VOC.

 

TVW: Do you notice any differences between the low/no VOC and traditional paints?

MD: It’s really no different. It goes on the same. It dries the same. The only difference is the smell. If you were to paint a wall with a standard paint and another wall with a low VOC you wouldn’t really notice a difference in the application of the look or the durability, really. It’s just a chemical change they do.

 

TVW: Is it very easy to find or does it have to be special ordered?

MD: Everyone sells it and it’s becoming more and more popular. Five years ago you had to order it and it wasn’t on the shelves.

 

TVW: Are there any price differences between low/no VOC and standard paints you’ve noticed?

MD: There is a small difference; not enough to make you feel like, ‘Well I don’t want to do that.’ The low VOCs they have out now are typically like a mid-quality, a mid-grade. They’re not the highest grade so they aren’t going to be as expensive as premium-grade paint. Like I said before, Benjamin Moore has the Aura product, and Sherwin Williams has the Harmony and some other low VOC paints that are premium grade. Now they are kind of combining the premium grade and low VOC.

 

TVW: What kind of questions would you advise a potential consumer ask before hiring a painter?

MD: It’s hard to say because everyone has different expectations. I try to find out what people’s experiences have been in the past and see what they are looking for. Sometimes people want it done quickly and inexpensively. Other people are more concerned about the details, and are you going to clean up every day, are you going to be here every day and other people don’t care. They should ask questions that are important to them as far as what their expectations are, and not to assume that everybody’s going to want the same thing. A lot of people get proposals and they’ll just look at the price. But they’re not comparing apples to apples. One person may be doing two coats and the other person may be doing one coat. The other person may have included the ceilings and the other didn’t because their proposal wasn’t very clear. Or they wrote it on a business card and handed it to them with a price. Besides the obvious of checking that they are licensed and insured, those types of things, just stating what your expectations are and what you want it to look like when you are done.

 

TVW: Are there any questions you ask a potential client?

MD: Questions I would ask is essentially, if they have a particular date they need to have it done by. Sometimes a people will need it done for a party coming up or something like that, and make sure we can accommodate the schedule. I ask them about colors, have they thought about colors. Usually I’ll ask a lot of questions if it’s interior, do they want the ceiling painted, the closets painted. People don’t think about that. They just say I want to get my house painted, but then when you start digging a little deeper, ‘Well did you want the ceilings painted? Is it going to be the same color as the walls? Are you doing different colors?’ That all affects the price — [things like] if they want to do the closets or not; [do they want] one coat or two coats. I ask a lot of questions because I like to give detailed proposals with an accurate price. There are no surprises later. The last thing you want to do is to give an estimate and then come in later with, “No, no that wasn’t included, or that wasn’t included,” and then it costs you more than what you anticipated it would cost you.

 

 

Episode 52

Twinkle VanWinkle, “Listen!” associate producer

Stuart Dowling, owner, Finish Coat Painting, Cleveland, Ohio

Interview: July 23, 2009

 

Twinkle VanWinkle: Can you state your name, business and location for the record, please?

Stuart Dowling: My name is Stuart Dowling. I’m located in Cleveland, Ohio. The name of my business is finish coat.

 

TVW: How long have you been in business?

SD: I’ve been in this business for 23 to 26 years. I’ve been working on my own for about 17 years.

 

TVW: First off, what are some questions you would recommend for a potential customer to ask you?

SD: Well, probably about the type of preparation, the type of products. Many people who already have a working knowledge of stuff, they know what they’re looking for and don’t have many questions at all. Others have no idea what the process involves and you need to explain the whole process from scraping, sanding, priming, filling holes, patching up plaster or cracks in drywall. So those are all the kinds of things that people should be asking about for interior painting.

 

TVW: What would be an average cost for standard three-bedroom house to have an interior paint job?

SD: The problem for averaging a cost for that is that it all depends on if it is new construction or an old home. Where I am located, many of the homes are century homes, so there is a lot more work that needs to be done. When you get further out into the suburbs, and they’re newer homes and they don’t need as much prep work. So the cost difference could be thousands of dollars. An average three-bedroom home in a new construction that doesn’t need a lot of preparation would be about $5,000, between $5,000 and $10,000.

 

TVW: Do you do exterior as well?

SD: I do limited exterior. With the economy the way it is, I do more. It’s a much more grueling type of work. A high quality exterior job never has to be as high quality as an interior job. So it’s difficult for me who does a lot of interior work, and I am very detailed oriented, to go outside and do work because I tend to overdo it. Which is good for some people. There are a lot of people who want a really nice job outside. It’s hard to be competitive is what I am saying, because most people don’t do that quality of work outside. It’s not really necessary because in our part of the country in another five to seven years it’s going to need to be redone, whereas interior jobs can last 20 years.

 

TVW: What is included in that cost?

SD: As far as the cost, I include everything: labor, materials, everything included. As far as the process, for interior work, I go in, we cover everything up. If we are going to be creating a lot of dust we do our best to seal off doorways so that the dust does not travel through the house. Then we scrape any loose, peeling flaking paint. We open up loose plaster or bad tape joints in drywall. In newer homes, there is drywall. In older homes, there’s plaster. So either issue with that, we open that up and do the patching that needs to be done, then spot prime or full-prime depending upon the necessity. All the woodwork gets completely sanded and spot primed or full primed as well. Then you’re pretty much ready for finish paint. I always put two coats of finish paint on the ceilings, walls and woodwork.

 

TVW: Is it the same process for exterior?

SD: Pretty much. Exterior, if it’s a house with siding, you want to power wash it to get the accumulated dirt and pollution off. Then you want to scrape anything that’s loose. Then sanding — I prefer a minimum of sanding. There are some companies that will do just a scrape and paint. I like to sand everything and then spot prime or full prime as necessary. Caulking any areas that are open. You need to be careful, though, especially with clapboard sided houses, if you caulk everything in then moisture can’t escape. So you want to leave some areas open. But around window frames you want to caulk so air doesn’t get in — it kind of helps with the insulation. If the house has older windows, we scrape those and remove any loose glazing, reglaze the windows, and then do any priming that needs to be done on the windows. For exterior, sometimes you can do one coat, sometimes two coats. It depends on whether it’s a color change and how much primer has been applied. Primer tends to be white, so if you are using a dark color, you usually have to do more than one coat.

 

TVW: What is window glazing?

SD: Window glazing is on older homes. Older homes, there’s like a putty that holds the glass in. New windows don’t have window glazing. The older homes that with one pane of glass . The glass gets placed in the wood frame. Then they use push points to keep it in place, so that it just doesn’t fall it out when you’re putting the glaze on. It’s a putty, you push it there with your fingers, and then you have to cut it with a glazing knife in order to make it smooth and at the right angle and level.

 

TVW: Have you used low or no VOC paints on any of your jobs?

SD: On interior jobs I have. On exterior jobs I have not.

 

TVW: How was your experience with these paints?

SD: Well, my first experience with these types of paints wasn’t very good. I didn’t like the product at all. The first time that I used it, it wasn’t a very satisfying experience for me, you could say. I can’t quite recall what the brand was. It didn’t flow very well. It didn’t bond well. It’s just something in any paint you want to make sure it’s going to bond, which is why I prefer to sand everything. So it really wasn’t bonding well, it wasn’t covering well. It didn’t smooth over at all. You want the finish to look smooth, and it would stay [gloppy] and wouldn’t give a nice finish. But more recently, the products have been improving for what I’ve used of late for low and no VOC. There is a difference between the low and no VOCs. There is also different VOC levels that are considered low and no depending upon whether it’s oil-based or latex-based — I should say water-based — and possibly interior and exterior. The low VOCs that I’ve used lately, the one from Sherwin Williams that I really like is mainly for walls, and that’s their Duration Home. The one from Benjamin Moore is their Aura, although it is very pricey. Benjamin Moore has now come out with a zero VOC paint, which even after tinting has zero VOCs. They say no other company can claim. So, Benjamin Moore carries no zero VOC paint, but to my understanding, once it’s tinted, there is a minimal amount of VOCs in the paint because of the tint. Benjamin Moore has a new tinting system for one of their lines of paint, and with that tinting system there are no VOCs added to the paint. So their Eco Spec is a no VOC even after tinting. I use it and I really like it. It’s not quite as nice the Duration Home from Sherwin Williams, but it’s got zero VOCs and it finishes off very nice. It’s easy to use. It flows well, and overall it’s a very good product. The price is comparable to normal price of paints.

 

TVW: Is there any reason you don’t like these low/no VOC paints?

SD: I still haven’t found a primer that I like that’s a low or no VOC. So that’s an issue. But someone brought to my attention a few days ago that Windsor has a low VOC primer. Windsor products, as far as their primers, I really like the Windsor products. So if I can find somewhere around in my area that carries it, I’ll try it and see if that’s any good. That would mainly be the thing I don’t like about the low/no VOCs. I’ve found some of the products that I do like the finish on; by there are some that I do not like the finish on. The primer and the finish are the two things I don’t like about the low and no VOCs. What I do like about them is they are good for the environment, they don’t smell. I just did a house where the woman had a 2-year-old daughter and she was about seven months pregnant. I was able to go in there and tell her there are products that have no VOCs and it’s not going to smell, and you don’t have to worry about the paint that I’m putting on causing any problems. What you do need to be careful in situations like that is the dust that you are picking up. When you scrape and sand, especially on older homes, you can release lead paint, which is an issue, especially for children. So you really need to seal everything off and cover floors with paper, not drop cloths. Make sure you dispose of everything and clean up everything really well afterwards.

 

TVW: What do you think about the price of low/no VOC to traditional paint prices?

SD: I think it’s comparable. The Benjamin Moore product, the Eco Spec, is comparable. It’s considered a mid-range paint; a contractor’s quality paint is what Benjamin Moore says. But I have found it to be on the higher end of that. That line has a very high-end [product called] Aura, which I feel is overpriced for what it is. It’s in the same line; it’s 100 percent acrylic. One-hundred percent acrylic paints are much better than the latex paints as far as durability and the finish they provide. Although, the one thing, kind of getting back to the things I don’t like about the no VOC, is that there is no product out there that finishes like oil base. Oil base finish paint has a completely smooth and glassy finish when you are done if you prep it right. They have yet to come up with a water-based product that mimics that. As far as getting back to the likes and dislikes, that's one of my dislikes. The prices, you can find expensive low VOC paint and no VOC paint, and you can find inexpensive ones. It's the same with regular paints. These days, the cost of paint is skyrocketing in my view. It’s difficult to find a gallon of paint that is below $30 that is a good quality. These days, if you find something that is 20, 25, 30 bucks, and it’s quality, then I think you’re on the right path.

 

TVW: So, you’ve had good experiences with these low/no VOCs then, and what would you consider the lifetime in comparison with traditional?

SD: Well, those older ones, I would say no. They weren’t even bonding. I would put a primer on and it wasn’t sticking to the surface properly. So I would say with those older products, no. But what they are coming up with now, I would say yeah. It should last just as long.

 

TVW: What kind of questions would you ask a potential customer?

SD: I ask them if they are interested in low/no VOC paints, because these days many people are. I ask them if they’re concerned about dust floating around in the house. I always cover up and seal things off as well as possible, but I always ask them, so I can warn them what’s coming. Because the kind of prep work that I do creates a lot of dust. A lot of people will just go in and slap some paint on and that doesn’t cause any dust, but it’s also not a quality job. I guess I just ask them what kind of expectations are as far as what they want the finish to look like. When considering low or no VOC paints, if you’re someone who wants your woodwork to look completely smooth and glassy, the only way to achieve that with a water-born product, which the low or no VOCs are, is to spray it on. Which sometimes usually will cause the job to be more expensive because you have to mask everything off. If you’re not concerned about it being a completely glassy smooth finish, then it can be brushed on the woodwork. If you don’t want spraying in your house, and you want that look, unfortunately all you can go with is oil-based paints. They are being phased out. I believe that the law at this point, in Ohio, any oil-based products for wood that were produced before the beginning of 2009 can still be used, but after that we are not supposed to be using oil-based products on woodwork. There’s all these primers that we can use. I think that there is probably porch and floor paints that can probably still be oil. Paint for metals can still be oil. I haven’t actually are the law, but it definitely changed and Sherwin Williams has pretty much phased out their oil. There are working on a product that will meet the VOC standards for Ohio, but it hasn’t come out yet, I don’t think. Benjamin Moore has labeled their oil-based paint that has always been used for woodwork as [for metal substrates only]. So we are limited in that regard.

 

TVW: How would someone know that they needed their exterior painted? What are the signs?

SD: If there is chalking, and you get a dusting of the color on your hands. That’s called chalking. That’s sign that it could us a paint job. As far as the windows that fit in older homes, with window glazing and are painted. If you see the glazing pulling away, the paint may not be peeling, but you might want to get that taken care of, because that reduces your insulation.

 

 

Episode 52

Twinkle VanWinkle, “Listen!” associate producer

Chris Coco, owner, Coco & Sons Painting and Home Improvement, St. Louis, Mo.

Interview: July 22, 2009

 

Twinkle VanWinkle: Can I get you to state your name, business and location for the record please?

Chris Coco: C. Coco and Sons Painting. We’ve been in business for 10 years. Chris Coco.

 

TVW: What is the average cost of an interior painting job?

CC: Average inside? I would say it would average out about $2,800. That would be probably up to three bedrooms, living room, dining room, the hall area, maybe a bathroom.

 

TVW: What about he average exterior home? What might be the cost of that?

CC: The average exterior I’d say is $5,000.

 

TVW: What does that include?

CC: That’s all the preparations, scraping, painting, reglazing the windows, power washing, scraping, priming. A lot of times we’ll include any trim replacement. If a small area of trim is rotten, we’ll replace that for that price also.

 

TVW: Is there anything that is not included?

CC: Well, whatever the customer tells us they want us to do, when we write the contract, we write it with what the customer wants us to bid on. Basically, their specifications and we’ll give them a price on it.

 

TVW: Have you ever used low or no VOC paint on a job?

CC: Yes, I sure have.

 

TVW: What are your feelings about it?

CC: Well, it was per customer request. We didn’t push it, per se. Most of the people that we deal with, they don’t have an issue with the odor of the paint. It’s not something that is in big demand. Maybe a half percentage of our customers ask about a low VOC paint. So it’s not anything important to most of our customers.

 

TVW: Are there any differences between traditional paint and the low/no VOC?

CC: No, it’s like a regular paint, per se. Besides the odor, there is a little less odor. Regular latex paint doesn’t carry a big odor anyway.

 

TVW: Is it harder to get than traditional paint?

CC: Yeah. All of our paint distributors sell it.

 

TVW: Is it more expensive?

CC: It’s a little more expensive, yeah. I would say about 5 to 8 percent more.

 

TVW: What is the lifetime on low/no VOC?

CC: I believe it’s the same as regular. All manufacturers will say that their product will last 20 years, but it just depends on how the surfaces were prepped, how the primers were used. Exterior jobs usually last 10 to 12 years. Interior jobs usually last a good eight to nine years before they are just too dirty, people’s handprints. It doesn’t wear out, per se.

 

TVW: Do you have any advice you would give to potential consumers?

CC: I would advise them to definitely look on Angie’s List. We do that with almost every customer we deal with. We’ll ask them how they got our names, we advise them to look on Angie’s List to review our reports, so on and so forth like that. We try to educate them a little bit on how a job should be done, the differences in primers, and how the primers are more important the paint itself, and the prep work is more important than the painting itself. We try to educate our customers in that respect. Then like I said, we steer them towards Angie’s List, to check on records and so on.

 

TVW: What kind of questions do you ask the customer?

CC: Usually the first question we ask is if they are going to stay there any length of time and that really determines to most customers if they are moving out they want some sort of quickie, low-dollar paint job. If they are going to be there for a while, they may want something that’s going to last quite awhile. That’s our first question to a customer. Again, how did they get our name? Did they get our name off Angie’s List? Were they referred by another customer? Things like that.

 

TVW: Is there anything you ask them, or request?

CC: They pretty much dictate that to us. They say, “We’re looking for an estimate,” the first thing I ask is do the want the full exterior, do they want the trim painted, just want the windows painted, same way with the inside: do they want the trim painted, the walls painted. Stuff like that.

 

TVW: Do you ask for a deposit?

CC: Yeah, we require half of the contracted price, half of it down and half when we are finished.

 

TVW: Are you required to be licensed? Are you licensed?

CC: Yes and yes. The city controllers drive around. If they see your truck out in front of a house, they’ll pull over and check and see if you are a licensed contractor. If not, they’ll kick you off the job.

We probably get 80 to 90 percent of our calls form Angie’s List [members]. We are really happy to be associated with them. Like I said, if the customer we have isn’t an Angie's List member, we really push them to look into and join. Not just because of us, if they need other work done, they can get online and so on. So we really push Angie's List to our customers and potential customer, also.

Twinkle VanWinkle, “Listen!” associate producer

Martin DeVincenti, owner, Benchmark Painting and Carpentry, Palm Beach, Fla.

Interview: July 23, 2009

 

Twinkle VanWinkle: Can I start off by getting your name, business and location for the record please?

Martin DeVincenti: It’s Mark DeVincenti with Benchmark Painting and Carpentry and we are located in Boynton Beach, Fla.

 

TVW: How long have you been in this business?

MD: About 15 years.

 

TVW: What would be an average interior painting estimate?

MD: Assuming you do everything — walls, ceiling, trim, inside closets ­— it’s somewhere in the neighborhood of $2,000.

 

TVW: How about the exterior?

MD: In my area, because of the type of home — because homes around here are mainly stucco and trim and no windows, mainly a door and a garage door — about $1,800.

 

TVW: What would you look for as signs that it is time to repaint your exterior?

MD: Typically, look for cracking in the stucco. Or if you take your finger and run it across the paint and the paint comes off in your hand, it’s chalking. Basically the film has broken down and that’s a good indication that it’s time to paint. Mildew, dirt and things like that.

 

TVW: What does a standard exterior paint job include?

MD: A standard paint job would include power washing, which would clean off the chalky paint, any mildew and dirt. Just kind of get the surface ready. Then, typically, you go through and repair any cracks in the stucco. Basically try to waterproof the outside of the house. Basically repairing the stucco, caulking windows, caulking the fascia, that type of thing. Sanding the doors, if there are doors to be painted. Then typically, the next step on the paint job would be to apply a primer, sealer. Then it’s typically the same thing, but people use different names for it. It’s like a base coat. Then you can do either one or two coats of finish paint. If you do a similar color you could probably do just one coat — a basic paint job.

 

TVW: What is the lifetime of an exterior paint job?

MD: Five to seven years is a good average, with good quality paint.

 

TVW: How about interiors? What do you do to prepare for interior?

MD: Interior is the same thing; sand the walls, fill in the cracks, patch holes, that type of thing. Caulking, the trim, just basically getting it ready. In the inside you have to be a little more careful because you have to wipe down the walls and get the dust off and things like that. You don’t always have to do a primer. It just depends on if you are doing a color change or you may prime if you have water stains or patches that you just fixed. Those need to be spot primed just that area. But particularly if you’re just going over a flat paint, you don’t necessarily need to prime it.

 

TVW: What would be the lifetime on an interior paint job?

MD: Depends upon the use of the house. If it’s just a couple of people living in there, and they’re not dragging their hands across the walls, then it’ll probably last longer. But if you have a house full of kids in and out and lots of traffic, then it will wear more quickly. Outside there is not much as far as the life, because it really depends on the weather conditions. No sticky fingers on the walls, throwing darts at the walls. You don’t really have that on the outside as much. On the outside you can maintain if two, three years down the road you start to see a little mildew or dirt, you just have it cleaned — light pressure and [mildewcide] detergent — and that will maintain the freshness of the paint job. It’s like anything; you just have to maintain it. Just not as often.

 

TVW: So most of what you work with in Palm Beach area is stucco?

MD: Yeah, most of it is stucco and trim. Occasionally you will find an older neighborhood, some wood siding, other services, some brick. But that is not typical for southeast architecture.

 

TVW: So, with stucco, what are your main problems?

MD: You have more mold issues and mold spots and things like that which can be cleaned with pressure washing.

 

TVW: DO you use any low or no VOC paints on any of your jobs?

MD: Yes, we use it quite a bit actually. We try to offer it as an alternative. Some people have higher allergies, or they don’t like the smell of fresh paint and we can give that as an alternative. And then commercial spaces like offices where people are there all the time.

 

TVW: Do you uses any low/no VOC paints on exterior?

MD: No, not necessarily, but a lot of the paints now they are manufacturing are going lower and lower on the VOCs. They are trying to move in that direction. Benjamin Moore has come out with a product called Aura and it started as an interior product, and now they have an exterior product. That’s a green paint, low VOC.

 

TVW: Do you notice any differences between the low/no VOC and traditional paints?

MD: It’s really no different. It goes on the same. It dries the same. The only difference is the smell. If you were to paint a wall with a standard paint and another wall with a low VOC you wouldn’t really notice a difference in the application of the look or the durability, really. It’s just a chemical change they do.

 

TVW: Is it very easy to find or does it have to be special ordered?

MD: Everyone sells it and it’s becoming more and more popular. Five years ago you had to order it and it wasn’t on the shelves.

 

TVW: Are there any price differences between low/no VOC and standard paints you’ve noticed?

MD: There is a small difference; not enough to make you feel like, ‘Well I don’t want to do that.’ The low VOCs they have out now are typically like a mid-quality, a mid-grade. They’re not the highest grade so they aren’t going to be as expensive as premium-grade paint. Like I said before, Benjamin Moore has the Aura product, and Sherwin Williams has the Harmony and some other low VOC paints that are premium grade. Now they are kind of combining the premium grade and low VOC.

 

TVW: What kind of questions would you advise a potential consumer ask before hiring a painter?

MD: It’s hard to say because everyone has different expectations. I try to find out what people’s experiences have been in the past and see what they are looking for. Sometimes people want it done quickly and inexpensively. Other people are more concerned about the details, and are you going to clean up every day, are you going to be here every day and other people don’t care. They should ask questions that are important to them as far as what their expectations are, and not to assume that everybody’s going to want the same thing. A lot of people get proposals and they’ll just look at the price. But they’re not comparing apples to apples. One person may be doing two coats and the other person may be doing one coat. The other person may have included the ceilings and the other didn’t because their proposal wasn’t very clear. Or they wrote it on a business card and handed it to them with a price. Besides the obvious of checking that they are licensed and insured, those types of things, just stating what your expectations are and what you want it to look like when you are done.

 

TVW: Are there any questions you ask a potential client?

MD: Questions I would ask is essentially, if they have a particular date they need to have it done by. Sometimes a people will need it done for a party coming up or something like that, and make sure we can accommodate the schedule. I ask them about colors, have they thought about colors. Usually I’ll ask a lot of questions if it’s interior, do they want the ceiling painted, the closets painted. People don’t think about that. They just say I want to get my house painted, but then when you start digging a little deeper, ‘Well did you want the ceilings painted? Is it going to be the same color as the walls? Are you doing different colors?’ That all affects the price — [things like] if they want to do the closets or not; [do they want] one coat or two coats. I ask a lot of questions because I like to give detailed proposals with an accurate price. There are no surprises later. The last thing you want to do is to give an estimate and then come in later with, “No, no that wasn’t included, or that wasn’t included,” and then it costs you more than what you anticipated it would cost you.

 

 

Episode 52

Twinkle VanWinkle, “Listen!” associate producer

Stuart Dowling, owner, Finish Coat Painting, Cleveland, Ohio

Interview: July 23, 2009

 

Twinkle VanWinkle: Can you state your name, business and location for the record, please?

Stuart Dowling: My name is Stuart Dowling. I’m located in Cleveland, Ohio. The name of my business is finish coat.

 

TVW: How long have you been in business?

SD: I’ve been in this business for 23 to 26 years. I’ve been working on my own for about 17 years.

 

TVW: First off, what are some questions you would recommend for a potential customer to ask you?

SD: Well, probably about the type of preparation, the type of products. Many people who already have a working knowledge of stuff, they know what they’re looking for and don’t have many questions at all. Others have no idea what the process involves and you need to explain the whole process from scraping, sanding, priming, filling holes, patching up plaster or cracks in drywall. So those are all the kinds of things that people should be asking about for interior painting.

 

TVW: What would be an average cost for standard three-bedroom house to have an interior paint job?

SD: The problem for averaging a cost for that is that it all depends on if it is new construction or an old home. Where I am located, many of the homes are century homes, so there is a lot more work that needs to be done. When you get further out into the suburbs, and they’re newer homes and they don’t need as much prep work. So the cost difference could be thousands of dollars. An average three-bedroom home in a new construction that doesn’t need a lot of preparation would be about $5,000, between $5,000 and $10,000.

 

TVW: Do you do exterior as well?

SD: I do limited exterior. With the economy the way it is, I do more. It’s a much more grueling type of work. A high quality exterior job never has to be as high quality as an interior job. So it’s difficult for me who does a lot of interior work, and I am very detailed oriented, to go outside and do work because I tend to overdo it. Which is good for some people. There are a lot of people who want a really nice job outside. It’s hard to be competitive is what I am saying, because most people don’t do that quality of work outside. It’s not really necessary because in our part of the country in another five to seven years it’s going to need to be redone, whereas interior jobs can last 20 years.

 

TVW: What is included in that cost?

SD: As far as the cost, I include everything: labor, materials, everything included. As far as the process, for interior work, I go in, we cover everything up. If we are going to be creating a lot of dust we do our best to seal off doorways so that the dust does not travel through the house. Then we scrape any loose, peeling flaking paint. We open up loose plaster or bad tape joints in drywall. In newer homes, there is drywall. In older homes, there’s plaster. So either issue with that, we open that up and do the patching that needs to be done, then spot prime or full-prime depending upon the necessity. All the woodwork gets completely sanded and spot primed or full primed as well. Then you’re pretty much ready for finish paint. I always put two coats of finish paint on the ceilings, walls and woodwork.

 

TVW: Is it the same process for exterior?

SD: Pretty much. Exterior, if it’s a house with siding, you want to power wash it to get the accumulated dirt and pollution off. Then you want to scrape anything that’s loose. Then sanding — I prefer a minimum of sanding. There are some companies that will do just a scrape and paint. I like to sand everything and then spot prime or full prime as necessary. Caulking any areas that are open. You need to be careful, though, especially with clapboard sided houses, if you caulk everything in then moisture can’t escape. So you want to leave some areas open. But around window frames you want to caulk so air doesn’t get in — it kind of helps with the insulation. If the house has older windows, we scrape those and remove any loose glazing, reglaze the windows, and then do any priming that needs to be done on the windows. For exterior, sometimes you can do one coat, sometimes two coats. It depends on whether it’s a color change and how much primer has been applied. Primer tends to be white, so if you are using a dark color, you usually have to do more than one coat.

 

TVW: What is window glazing?

SD: Window glazing is on older homes. Older homes, there’s like a putty that holds the glass in. New windows don’t have window glazing. The older homes that with one pane of glass. The glass gets placed in the wood frame. Then they use push points to keep it in place, so that it just doesn’t fall it out when you’re putting the glaze on. It’s a putty, you push it there with your fingers, and then you have to cut it with a glazing knife in order to make it smooth and at the right angle and level.

 

TVW: Have you used low or no VOC paints on any of your jobs?

SD: On interior jobs I have. On exterior jobs I have not.

 

TVW: How was your experience with these paints?

SD: Well, my first experience with these types of paints wasn’t very good. I didn’t like the product at all. The first time that I used it, it wasn’t a very satisfying experience for me, you could say. I can’t quite recall what the brand was. It didn’t flow very well. It didn’t bond well. It’s just something in any paint you want to make sure it’s going to bond, which is why I prefer to sand everything. So it really wasn’t bonding well, it wasn’t covering well. It didn’t smooth over at all. You want the finish to look smooth, and it would stay [gloppy] and wouldn’t give a nice finish. But more recently, the products have been improving for what I’ve used of late for low and no VOC. There is a difference between the low and no VOCs. There is also different VOC levels that are considered low and no depending upon whether it’s oil-based or latex-based — I should say water-based — and possibly interior and exterior. The low VOCs that I’ve used lately, the one from Sherwin Williams that I really like is mainly for walls, and that’s their Duration Home. The one from Benjamin Moore is their Aura, although it is very pricey. Benjamin Moore has now come out with a zero VOC paint, which even after tinting has zero VOCs. They say no other company can claim. So, Benjamin Moore carries no zero VOC paint, but to my understanding, once it’s tinted, there is a minimal amount of VOCs in the paint because of the tint. Benjamin Moore has a new tinting system for one of their lines of paint, and with that tinting system there are no VOCs added to the paint. So their Eco Spec is a no VOC even after tinting. I use it and I really like it. It’s not quite as nice the Duration Home from Sherwin Williams, but it’s got zero VOCs and it finishes off very nice. It’s easy to use. It flows well, and overall it’s a very good product. The price is comparable to normal price of paints.

 

TVW: Is there any reason you don’t like these low/no VOC paints?

SD: I still haven’t found a primer that I like that’s a low or no VOC. So that’s an issue. But someone brought to my attention a few days ago that Windsor has a low VOC primer. Windsor products, as far as their primers, I really like the Windsor products. So if I can find somewhere around in my area that carries it, I’ll try it and see if that’s any good. That would mainly be the thing I don’t like about the low/no VOCs. I’ve found some of the products that I do like the finish on; by there are some that I do not like the finish on. The primer and the finish are the two things I don’t like about the low and no VOCs. What I do like about them is they are good for the environment, they don’t smell. I just did a house where the woman had a 2-year-old daughter and she was about seven months pregnant. I was able to go in there and tell her there are products that have no VOCs and it’s not going to smell, and you don’t have to worry about the paint that I’m putting on causing any problems. What you do need to be careful in situations like that is the dust that you are picking up. When you scrape and sand, especially on older homes, you can release lead paint, which is an issue, especially for children. So you really need to seal everything off and cover floors with paper, not drop cloths. Make sure you dispose of everything and clean up everything really well afterwards.

 

TVW: What do you think about the price of low/no VOC to traditional paint prices?

SD: I think it’s comparable. The Benjamin Moore product, the Eco Spec, is comparable. It’s considered a mid-range paint; a contractor’s quality paint is what Benjamin Moore says. But I have found it to be on the higher end of that. That line has a very high-end [product called] Aura, which I feel is overpriced for what it is. It’s in the same line; it’s 100 percent acrylic. One-hundred percent acrylic paints are much better than the latex paints as far as durability and the finish they provide. Although, the one thing, kind of getting back to the things I don’t like about the no VOC, is that there is no product out there that finishes like oil base. Oil base finish paint has a completely smooth and glassy finish when you are done if you prep it right. They have yet to come up with a water-based product that mimics that. As far as getting back to the likes and dislikes, that's one of my dislikes. The prices, you can find expensive low VOC paint and no VOC paint, and you can find inexpensive ones. It's the same with regular paints. These days, the cost of paint is skyrocketing in my view. It’s difficult to find a gallon of paint that is below $30 that is a good quality. These days, if you find something that is 20, 25, 30 bucks, and it’s quality, then I think you’re on the right path.

 

TVW: So, you’ve had good experiences with these low/no VOCs then, and what would you consider the lifetime in comparison with traditional?

SD: Well, those older ones, I would say no. They weren’t even bonding. I would put a primer on and it wasn’t sticking to the surface properly. So I would say with those older products, no. But what they are coming up with now, I would say yeah. It should last just as long.

 

TVW: What kind of questions would you ask a potential customer?

SD: I ask them if they are interested in low/no VOC paints, because these days many people are. I ask them if they’re concerned about dust floating around in the house. I always cover up and seal things off as well as possible, but I always ask them, so I can warn them what’s coming. Because the kind of prep work that I do creates a lot of dust. A lot of people will just go in and slap some paint on and that doesn’t cause any dust, but it’s also not a quality job. I guess I just ask them what kind of expectations are as far as what they want the finish to look like. When considering low or no VOC paints, if you’re someone who wants your woodwork to look completely smooth and glassy, the only way to achieve that with a water-born product, which the low or no VOCs are, is to spray it on. Which sometimes usually will cause the job to be more expensive because you have to mask everything off. If you’re not concerned about it being a completely glassy smooth finish, then it can be brushed on the woodwork. If you don’t want spraying in your house, and you want that look, unfortunately all you can go with is oil-based paints. They are being phased out. I believe that the law at this point, in Ohio, any oil-based products for wood that were produced before the beginning of 2009 can still be used, but after that we are not supposed to be using oil-based products on woodwork. There’s all these primers that we can use. I think that there is probably porch and floor paints that can probably still be oil. Paint for metals can still be oil. I haven’t actually are the law, but it definitely changed and Sherwin Williams has pretty much phased out their oil. There are working on a product that will meet the VOC standards for Ohio, but it hasn’t come out yet, I don’t think. Benjamin Moore has labeled their oil-based paint that has always been used for woodwork as [for metal substrates only]. So we are limited in that regard.

 

TVW: How would someone know that they needed their exterior painted? What are the signs?

SD: If there is chalking, and you get a dusting of the color on your hands. That’s called chalking. That’s sign that it could us a paint job. As far as the windows that fit in older homes, with window glazing and are painted. If you see the glazing pulling away, the paint may not be peeling, but you might want to get that taken care of, because that reduces your insulation.

 

 

Episode 52

Twinkle VanWinkle, “Listen!” associate producer

Chris Coco, owner, Coco & Sons Painting and Home Improvement, St. Louis, Mo.

Interview: July 22, 2009

 

Twinkle VanWinkle: Can I get you to state your name, business and location for the record please?

Chris Coco: C. Coco and Sons Painting. We’ve been in business for 10 years. Chris Coco.

 

TVW: What is the average cost of an interior painting job?

CC: Average inside? I would say it would average out about $2,800. That would be probably up to three bedrooms, living room, dining room, the hall area, maybe a bathroom.

 

TVW: What about he average exterior home? What might be the cost of that?

CC: The average exterior I’d say is $5,000.

 

TVW: What does that include?

CC: That’s all the preparations, scraping, painting, reglazing the windows, power washing, scraping, priming. A lot of times we’ll include any trim replacement. If a small area of trim is rotten, we’ll replace that for that price also.

 

TVW: Is there anything that is not included?

CC: Well, whatever the customer tells us they want us to do, when we write the contract, we write it with what the customer wants us to bid on. Basically, their specifications and we’ll give them a price on it.

 

TVW: Have you ever used low or no VOC paint on a job?

CC: Yes, I sure have.

 

TVW: What are your feelings about it?

CC: Well, it was per customer request. We didn’t push it, per se. Most of the people that we deal with, they don’t have an issue with the odor of the paint. It’s not something that is in big demand. Maybe a half percentage of our customers ask about a low VOC paint. So it’s not anything important to most of our customers.

 

TVW: Are there any differences between traditional paint and the low/no VOC?

CC: No, it’s like a regular paint, per se. Besides the odor, there is a little less odor. Regular latex paint doesn’t carry a big odor anyway.

 

TVW: Is it harder to get than traditional paint?

CC: Yeah. All of our paint distributors sell it.

 

TVW: Is it more expensive?

CC: It’s a little more expensive, yeah. I would say about 5 to 8 percent more.

 

TVW: What is the lifetime on low/no VOC?

CC: I believe it’s the same as regular. All manufacturers will say that their product will last 20 years, but it just depends on how the surfaces were prepped, how the primers were used. Exterior jobs usually last 10 to 12 years. Interior jobs usually last a good eight to nine years before they are just too dirty, people’s handprints. It doesn’t wear out, per se.

 

TVW: Do you have any advice you would give to potential consumers?

CC: I would advise them to definitely look on Angie’s List. We do that with almost every customer we deal with. We’ll ask them how they got our names, we advise them to look on Angie’s List to review our reports, so on and so forth like that. We try to educate them a little bit on how a job should be done, the differences in primers, and how the primers are more important the paint itself, and the prep work is more important than the painting itself. We try to educate our customers in that respect. Then like I said, we steer them towards Angie’s List, to check on records and so on.

 

TVW: What kind of questions do you ask the customer?

CC: Usually the first question we ask is if they are going to stay there any length of time and that really determines to most customers if they are moving out they want some sort of quickie, low-dollar paint job. If they are going to be there for a while, they may want something that’s going to last quite awhile. That’s our first question to a customer. Again, how did they get our name? Did they get our name off Angie’s List? Were they referred by another customer? Things like that.

 

TVW: Is there anything you ask them, or request?

CC: They pretty much dictate that to us. They say, “We’re looking for an estimate,” the first thing I ask is do the want the full exterior, do they want the trim painted, just want the windows painted, same way with the inside: do they want the trim painted, the walls painted. Stuff like that.

 

TVW: Do you ask for a deposit?

CC: Yeah, we require half of the contracted price, half of it down and half when we are finished.

 

TVW: Are you required to be licensed? Are you licensed?

CC: Yes and yes. The city controllers drive around. If they see your truck out in front of a house, they’ll pull over and check and see if you are a licensed contractor. If not, they’ll kick you off the job.

We probably get 80 to 90 percent of our calls form Angie’s List [members]. We are really happy to be associated with them. Like I said, if the customer we have isn’t an Angie's List member, we really push them to look into and join. Not just because of us, if they need other work done, they can get online and so on. So we really push Angie's List to our customers and potential customer, also.