Jeremy Stacy, “Listen!” associate producer
Ed Sanchez, owner, Window Restoration and Repair, Los Alamitos, Calif.
Interview – Aug. 6, 2009

Ed Sanchez: My name is Ed Sanchez and my company is Window Restoration and Repair. My location is in Los Alamitos, Calif.

Jeremy Stacy: How long have you been in the window business?

ES: Since 1983. I started out working for a window manufacturer of aluminum windows.

After being in that business for [nearly 15 years] … I eventually decided to start [restoring windows] because it fits better with my personality. I'm the kind of guy who will keep a car for 330,000 miles before changing it out so it works for me to repair things rather than replace them. I guess it was a sort of green way of thinking before I knew what green was.

I realized that the windows I was pulling out for 10 to 15 years were actually better ,longevity-wise, than the windows I was putting in. It's not so much the face of the vinyl windows, it's the plastic injected molded parts that assemble the window that bring the problems. And being how those companies don't think like General Motors where they keep parts for 20 years, many times in order to keep up with the trends, they're changing parts every single year and they're not going to keep parts for a 10-year-old window.

JS: Why do homeowners come to you to fix their windows?

ES: The common reason why they come to me is they want to maintain the architecture of their home and they're afraid if they change them out, it will change. It will change the look of their home. It's very much a visual thing I think because the newer windows look different. Even the new wood windows look different.

There are other reasons. Some people come to me because of the fact that they don't want to spend the money on new windows. It's just simply an economic reason.

Sometimes they come to me because the windows are just literally not working and they're burning up in the summer or they're leaking air and sometimes water and they need to deal with it because it's causing problems. All of these things are very, very fixable.

Sometimes they have wood rot problems that can be repaired. In some cases it makes more sense to replace certain wood than to go through the work of using epoxies and things like that, which is what I use if I'm dealing with damaged wood.

JS: What's the difference between restoration and repair?

ES: As far as we're concerned they're very similar. For the restoration, it's a two-part thing. It's the operation of the window and the structural integrity. The visual and the painting aspects of the window, there are many, many painters that love to do that sort of thing so we leave the painting aspect of the restoration to the painters and I refer people all the time.

We deal with the stuff they can't do, which is normally the physical manipulation of the window and the structural integrity of it and also just the plain, simple operation of it.

A lot of times the operation can be made to be much better than the day it was new in 1928. There are little tricks that have made them able to operate even better than they would back then because of some technology changes — lubricants and adjustment techniques.

JS: What kind of windows do you restore?

ES: I restore a lot of wood windows, double-hung windows and the ones that go up and down. I repair a lot of casement windows. From the 1920s to the late ’30s there was a lot of in-swinging casement windows [back then]. Those are important that they're adjusted right because they could be the most problematic as far as water infiltration and air [is concerned].

In fact, because of that, many manufacturers don't even want to touch those so many times you won't even see those again, which is another reason to keep them because they're going to be more unique every single year.

Another beauty of those in-swinging casement windows is that they're sort of romantic. It's a style that has kind of gone away.

JS: How do you charge for your work?

ES: There's a basic charge for what we call a tune-up. In the tune-up we pretty much restore it to the original operation of the window back when it was new. That's the majority of what we do.

In some cases, the wood is so bad it makes sense to replace that portion of the window. Not the whole window, just that portion — perhaps the sash — that's the part that wraps around the glass.

In some cases, near the ocean, we have to replace hardware, which has rusted or corroded. I must say, other than just on the ocean, if a window has been fitted properly — which can change over time — houses settle and they change the shape of the sash and the window has to be adjusted — when they're adjusted, the hardware should last 50 years plus because there's nothing to wear it down. But, if it doesn't close and you're cranking that thing shut, that's when you're going to have problems with sticking and putting stress on the hardware.

We're getting the operation of the window like it was when it was new. We're making sure that it structurally is worth painting and keeping up indefinitely. And if it isn't, then we end up letting them know that it doesn't make sense to fix this. We should replace that one. In some cases, I just replace one out of 25 windows.

JS: What factors must homeowners weigh when deciding between restoration and replacement?

ES: If they care about [originality], number one. Another one is if the whole neighborhood has changed out windows and if the home is a newer style home and it's not such a factor to have older windows, sometimes it just makes more sense to replace them.

It has more to do with the architecture of the home. Many homes after the 1950s, some of those, the way they were constructed and all, it's not so desirable because the wood that was used after World War II is not of the same grade that was used before the World War II.

The wood is a big thing. The wood of the older style windows came out of old trees. The way a tree works is the older it is, the more toxic the sap is to a bug. The other thing is, these old-style windows, many times, they would dip the timbers in a borate solution, which was wonderful for protecting it against bugs and even mold. Many times it was just an order of business. That's the way they did things back then. They would dip the wood in this borate and let it soak so it would seep in and they could paint over it.

To take something that had that much work put into it and pull it out and put something modern is sometimes not the wisest choice.

Another reason to replace a window is if a person is in a climate where it gets really, really cold. There are things that could be done to the window. On the east coast, they do storm windows, but on the west coast, there's no need for a storm window.

Like in the San Fernando Valley, some people might prefer to have dual pane windows. And another thing, in certain districts the code is you have to replace it. If you replace it, you have no choice. The law is you have to replace with dual. If that's the case you have to be aware of that.

JS: How can homeowners keep their wooden windows operating properly?

ES: One thing is they have to make sure they fit right. If they don't open and close easily, it causes a stress to the wooden joints and if you flex the wooden joints too much, you actually provide a space where moisture can get in.

If the putty that's up against the glass — the wood putty or the glazing putty — lifts from the glass and water gets in behind it, that could end up doing damage to the sash. The sash is the four pieces of wood that's wrapped around the glass.

The way you keep that putty from lifting is that you make sure it's painted properly. There are techniques in painting that in many cases aren't employed because it takes a little more time to paint it properly. But, if you do, you're windows should last a long, long time.

JS: How can homeowners make their windows more energy efficient?

ES: One of the things they should consider is there are ways of adjusting the windows just the way that they are. If they're adjusted properly and fitted properly, they could seat wood to wood with a minimal amount of air infiltration.

Now, there's another step we can take and we do it quite bit where we can now weather strip these old-style wood windows to seal every bit as well as the newer modern type of wooden windows. You can get them to seal well in regards to air infiltration.

The only thing a vinyl or a modern window has going for it is the dual pane aspect. That's just something the older windows don't have. But, as a result of not having dual pane glass, you're never going to get fogging in your older windows. And once you change out your windows, you can never go back. They're not going to let you go back unless you're in a specific historic district.

JS: Is there anything else you’d like to add about window repair?

ES: There are plenty of people who don't have a clue that their windows are good. They just figure that if there's paint chipping, it's garbage because the replacement window business is pretty much predicated on that way of thinking. It's funny because I tell people sometimes that the business I'm in is the penance that I pay for all the beautiful wood windows I used to pull out and put in aluminum and eventually I even put in vinyl thinking that I was doing a good thing. As time went on I saw how many repairs came up as a result of these types of windows, literally within 10 years.

I've been around long enough to see these things come back at me. I had one where I literally changed the window to aluminum and 20 years later, the next people that had bought the home asked me to pull out the aluminum windows — they didn't know I had put them in — and put in wood like it was originally.

The shame about it is I even told them, I said, "I put those in and the sad thing is the windows I'll be putting in aren't even as good as the ones I pulled out." And I didn't know that back then. I thought they were garbage and that was the way I was trained. But in time, let me tell you, it's not garbage. It's really a crying shame that people don't know once it's gone, 10 years later they have fogging in the glass, they got parts coming loose and they just say, "Let's change them again."

And of course, that's great for the replacement business. They get the new thing and the new colored windows and new materials of the decade, but they change them out like people change out computers. It's a shame because those old windows could be sealed up and the only weak point to them is single pane.

If you weigh out the amount of energy savings that you'll benefit from and you amortize it out, in our life times, we will not pay for those windows. We just won't. That's what people have to realize. If they just like to have the newest thing, then fine. You replace you cars every five years, replace your windows every 10-15 years, and you're probably a happy camper.

But, to the guy that wants to buy something and hang on to it — like me — and feel proud of it that it's the original one — or not even that just from a financial standpoint — it's more economical and cost-effective to keep the original stuff. Not to mention, the people that buy an older home, especially today, really care about original.

If they want a modern house, it's very easy to buy a modern house. It's not even that expensive. But to buy an older home, people care about the older things and you get points by having an older window that was made back in 1937 with that home. That's where maintaining and restoring them can really pay off and not just from a personal standpoint of liking the original, but from a financial standpoint of it actually making dollars and cents to keep them.

To the cheapskates of the world and to the purists of the world, it's not just the little tweaky purists that drive Model-T Fords, it's not just those people it's the people that are looking at the dollars and cents.

By the way, if you're going to buy a vinyl window, you have make sure you buy a good one. You're better off buying anything else but a cheap vinyl window because ... of all the windows that I sell, there's a point of diminishing returns where I have to tell people it's just not worth putting money into this product.

Jeremy Stacy, “Listen!” associate producer
Alison Hardy, owner, Window Woman of New England, Topsfield, Mass.,
Interview – Aug. 3, 2009

Alison Hardy: Alison Hardy, Window Woman of New England, we're in Topsfield, Mass. We have been in business for six years.

JS: How did you get into the window restoration business?

AH: My husband and I have owned a series of old houses and I got tired of hearing people say, "Oh, just replace the windows." I said, "I can fix these." So I started fixing ours and I started fixing friends' and I decided it was time to leave the textile industry and fix windows for good.

JS: What’s the most common reason people come to you?

AH: Typically it's because they love the old glass in their windows and they want to save them. Often it's a unique shape like an arch top window or a bowed window that are very difficult and expensive to get these days. It all depends on what the particular house's characteristics are, but typically it's people that love the old glass.

JS: What are common repairs you make?

AH: You know, most of them are very simple. [The windows] don't open. They don't close all the way, which is usually a very simple fix by fixing the ropes on them. Broken glass is another one that happens a lot. Usually it's just that the windows are difficult to open or close.

JS: What’s the difference between window restoration and window repair?

AH: In full restoration we pull the windows out of their openings, we bring them back to our shop, we take all the paint off of them and do whatever repairs are necessary and then fully reglaze and repaint them and put them back in. It's a very long, time-consuming process. It's about 20 to 24 hours per window to do.

In a repair situation, it could be anything where it's replacing broken ropes, replacing glass, adding weather stripping, but we don't tend to remove all the paint and do the repairs.

Typically in a full restoration, either the window is falling apart or someone is doing a whole house renovation and they want the windows as sparkling as they were 100 years ago.

The vast majority of our customers are just doing repairs.

JS: How do you charge for a job?

AH: It's basically estimating the number of labor hours involved because all of our work is really just labor. We have some materials, but the majority of the cost of it is labor. For example to replace all of the ropes in a window — and there are four ropes in a window — is about an hour of labor so it would be about $75. If we were to do a full restoration, it's like 20 to 24 hours per window, so those get expensive.

JS: What kind of windows can be repaired?

AH: Almost anything made before 1960 can be repaired.

JS: What types of problems are associated with newer windows?

AH: The newer windows, especially the ones with the double-insulated glass, the seal breaks and they fog up. It's a very common problem. You have to order a new factory-sealed glass unit, which is almost as expensive as getting a whole new window.

Also the construction of the windows is not the good mortise and tenon construction of the older windows. If a corner is rotted on a newer window, there's nothing we can repair. It's just gone. Whereas on the older ones, you'll have bits and pieces of it that are still there that can be put back together.

Also the quality of the wood for the older ones is worth restoring. The newer ones, it's like they're made of cardboard. I mean, we could repair them, but why bother?

JS: When should a homeowner consider window restoration or repair?

AH: Typically if they're finding that their windows are hard to operate, that's when they usually call us about fixing them and we can usually correct it before it gets to a full restoration.

However. if they bought a house and one of the windows is propped up by shear luck, well then it needs a full restoration.

A lot of homeowners are getting proactive about doing home maintenance and doing preventative maintenance. So when they see problems that comes crashing down and the glass is broken, they call us then we can talk about adding weather stripping and upgrading from chord to chain — all things that will make further maintenance down the line much easier.

JS: What factors must homeowners weigh when deciding between restoration and replacement?

AH: Really right now it's coming down to an issue of cost. It's much cheaper to fix windows than it is to replace them. We just did a house that probably has 1950s- 1960s-era Anderson windows that are in tough shape, but they're not falling apart. They're OK. It was $5,000 to replace them and the repairs we did to get them so the cranks now work, they close fully, they can be locked fully, they're reglazed — they're ready for painting, basically — was around $500. The homeowner was thrilled! It's kind of like, that was a no-brainer.

We can do some simple fixes that are generally around $200 to $300 per window and the window will last another 100 years. Versus replacing a window that will cost three times that much and last 10 to 15 years.

Everyone who does [window] restoration prices differently. We tend to price by the number of panes of glass in a window. If you have large single pane over a large singe pane, which we call a one over one, those are really inexpensive.

When it gets to the ones that have little tiny squares of glass — where you have like 18 to 24 panes in a window — that gets really, really, really expensive. It is so much labor. You just have to imagine sanding and scraping all those little corners. It's like we don't have four corners any more, we have 24 times four corners.

JS: Can you repair new windows?

AH: Sadly, that is the problem with the new windows. They are designed to be replaced, not repaired. We have done some repairs [on newer homes]. We did a house that was seven years old that all of the springs that hold the window up and down on the sides — every single one was broken.

Luckily, they were able to get replacement channels from the window company. We put them all in. They may only last another seven years, but it's worth asking the window manufacturer if they have pieces and parts like that so they can at least be kept working.

But, when it gets to the point where the glass is fogged for example, you might as well just get a replacement window for a replacement window.

JS: What are misconceptions people have about window restoration?

AH: I think the hardest one is people think [window restoration] is only for historic houses and that it must be so much more expensive than getting replacement windows.

Time and again we have heard that we're so much cheaper than replacement windows. And we work on very modest houses because people just want everything that's in the house to stay in the house. They don't want to just keep throwing things into dumpsters. They want to take a more prudent and pragmatic approach to maintaining their house.

The one that gets me the most is people saying, "My house isn't historic." It's OK! It's doesn't have to be.

JS: What can homeowners do to maintain their windows?

AH: Well, I have to say this weekend even I, who restores windows, I was really bad and I have neglected my own house's windows. So I went around and vacuumed up all the windowsills because there's a lot of dirt that collects there over the winter and all of that dirt traps water and all of that water will eventually rot the wood. Keeping the window wells clean goes a long way towards maintaining your windows.

Another thing people don't realize is that you can wax the channels that the windows run in so they run a whole lot smoother. That alone, because that's the majority of what people's complaints are — they're hard to operate — just by waxing them once a year you can make them so much easier. And that puts so much less stress on the chords so they don't break. The whole process is much better.

Cleaning and waxing. Those are my suggestions.

JS: How does the energy efficiency of a wood window compare with a replacement window?

AH: There are a number of studies. Probably the biggest one was done at the University of Vermont in like 1997 and I believe the difference in efficiency was all of about $1 per window per year — especially when you factor in the cost of the replacement windows. If an old window is well maintained with a good storm window, it is every bit as efficient as a new window.

There's currently a study being done by the National Trust for Historic Preservation, which should be published this winter. I believe they've already been very surprised at the results they've been getting testing the old windows with the new windows.

What's interesting is when people are concerned about energy efficiency, they immediately look at the windows. But, what we have heard from home energy auditors over and over again is that there are many, many more leaky areas in a house besides windows and doors.

I always strongly encourage people to get a home energy audit first before spending money on anything. Find out where the leaks are. Don't assume anything.

We had a house where the owner was complaining about the front door leaking terribly. We were about to weather strip it and they had the energy auditor in it and it turned out there was a hole in the foundation, which is where all the cold air was coming in. It was very simple to fix. Thank goodness we didn't waste our time putting weather stripping on the door when that wasn't really the problem.

When people are really concerned about energy efficiency, don't assume anything. You may feel a draft in one place, but it could totally be coming from a different source.

Get the energy audit first, then attack the problem.

JS: How can a person make their wood windows more energy efficient?

AH: The simplest one is making sure the window is fully closed and locked. A lot of times we'll find the upper sash has fallen down and it gets painted into that position. So if the homeowner feels so inclined, they can free that up and get it pushed all the way up where it should be.

We've seen people put little blocks of wood to hold it in place, sticks to hold it in place — whatever it takes — but get the top one all the way up and get the lower one all the way down and get a good lock on it.

People think that the lock is for security, but the lock is really part of the weather tightness of the window. It pulls everything together and holds it off against the draft. That's a $14 fix that people should definitely make. I go into houses all the time that don't have locks and I'm like, "You have to understand, it's part of the weather stripping system and security."

JS: Tell me about the “green” aspect of older, wood windows.

AH: Comparing energy efficiency with old windows versus new windows, you have to look at the whole life cycle of what goes into them. With the old windows, you have wood that's probably 100-plus years old. It's already been milled. It's already been shaped and formed and installed. Versus a new window that has to have factory-made components so you have a tremendous energy difference between the old windows and the new ones to begin with. Then, if you're only going to get a small bit of energy efficiency improvement by installing a new window, and you're losing an old window, then we're really making a negative effect on the environment.

For saving a few kilowatt-hours, we're spending a tremendous amount of kilowatt-hours to manufacture a window, install it and throw away the old window. The whole green cycle of the production of windows and the maintenance of windows — if you look at the whole picture, then keeping your old windows is much more energy efficient.

JS: How can someone find a window restoration specialist?

AH: Certainly looking at companies like [Angie's List], looking in the yellow pages and asking around at your historic commissions.

I would ask a builder because a lot of times they do know of us or a historic commission — people who are involved with saving old houses. And then just the basic resources like the Yellow Pages or an online directory of some sort.